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#1038508 09/01/04 04:35 PM
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I wanted to thank you for the chart below, arch, as I couldn't find something similar yesterday, but I'm glad that you did. That was actually developed in conjunction with the CTTC Instructors, and despite what your little site said, Fairfax county did not invent PIT. The military did in their CTTC program for use by MPs and various other personnel as an offensive driving technique. Fairfax was the first civilian police department to use it as the military a lot of cross-training with various PDs in this regards.

Notice on the left-hand side it says "Known Threat Posed by Subject". Now, when the chase started this was definitely a Level 1 which is why we can see the South Carolina police doing little more than follow behind in the appropriate patterns -- it very quickly became a Level 2 when the driver committed attempted vehicular manslaughter on a highway worker.

Now, if you draw a little line over you can see the recommended solutions for that particular flight level -- Boxing In (antiquated technique rarely used anymore because of the hazard posed to the perpetrator, the officers, and the public) and Controlled Contact Techniques (this would mean PIT). You will also notice that, at that Flight Level, Disengaging is a very low option. Disengaging is generally only seriously considered for Level 1 flights. It has been stated by the GSP officers and the South Carolina officers that only after she almost killed that highway worker was the PIT considered.

But that's really beside your main point.

Your point is that the Cop committed manslaughter, correct?

Well, this isn't a cut-and-dry case, and while he did not commit manslaughter (by definition) he may have commited Wrongful Death and the legal system will decide if he did or not if a case is filed. There will likely be a civil suit brought by the family of the passenger. But it's unlikely that they'll win because the maneuver was conducted within the guidelines set up by the GSP.

GSP Policy States that the PIT maneuver must be conducted at "reasonable speeds" and at "locations where it can be performed safely". Now I will be the first to admit that a PIT at anything near 100 is hardly "reasonable" by my definition, even while I do believe it was the only way to stop this vehicle. I have PIT'd cars and been PIT'd at 75 and while it can be done safely, it's not for the faint of heart. But the real key is that according to the GSP, the "trooper performed within his training" and "he followed department policy". So, according to the state laws of Georgia the man did not commit manslaughter. According to the GSP the speed and location were "reasonable" and "safe". No matter how much you may disagree that is the law, and like I said before, when you can vote you can attempt to change that.

The civil suit will reach it's own conclusion, but if the GSP thought there was a good case against one of its' officers it would have dropped him in a hurry, so they obviously don't expect to lose. There are plenty of experts to call that will testify that the PIT maneuver was executed correctly and as a last resort after other ideas were considered too hazardous to attempt. You can disagree with them all you want, but I'm telling you that is exactly what will happen.

It's worth noting that a civil suit will not be brought by the family of the driver because her family agrees with the course of action that the police took. I'm personally rather astonished to hear that in this day and age with the shrugging of personal responsibility. The family of the passenger is far more likely to file the suit against the family of the driver -- because as you said, the driver was first-and-foremost responsible for the safety of the passenger, not the police whose first responsibility, by GSP policy, is to protect those outside of the perpetrator's vehicle. Again, if you disagree with that, take it up with the guys writing the laws and policies not the cop who was just carrying out his training. The case against the driver by the passenger is a guaranteed win, while a case against the GSP is not so much a given.

And now I have no more intentions of posting here again.


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#1038509 09/01/04 04:37 PM
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people die and are seriously mamed from non-leathal weapons (like rubber bullets, wooden blocks, beanbags, stun guns, etc.) as well. they are still non-leathal. since when was spinning a car considered to be deadly force? what percentage of PITs result in death?


lastly, since when do officers have to know the relationship of everyone in the car???? fact? i think not.



i cant believe i actually read this whole thread. did it over two sittings, but dayum.

edit: yes, very well put sigma



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#1038510 09/01/04 04:46 PM
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Well put sigma. There really isn't any discussion left to have.

PLEASE MOVE ALONG...THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE


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#1038511 09/01/04 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by arch:
FACT #1: High Speed chase across state lines
FACT #8: It is up to the police to determine said relationship BEFORE attempting anything to further endanger the passengers life.
FACT #9: Other non-lethal attempts COULD have been TRIED before resorting to a PIT.





Lol, and just how were they supposed to do number 8? Somehow magically get her cell number and call her, asking if she is holding the passenger hostage? Then you would be ranting about how the police caused her to crash because they called her on her cell while she was fleeing at 100 MPH.

I have seen no other non-lethal suggestions here, or anywhere, for that matter.


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#1038512 09/01/04 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by arch:
Quote:

And I got your point long ago, you simply want to be able to run.



Wrong.

How I know they did not try anything....
There is another video of it somewhere else that is a full length video pretty much from start-finish. I would post a link, but I cant find it. Which Is why i havent mentioned it until now. That is as far as I will go into that subject.




Wait, you are replying to Packrat, and quoting me...

Anyway, until you produce this link, your claim is meaningless.


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#1038513 09/01/04 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by arch:
If they dont know what the relationship is, they shouldnt be executing deadly force.




Your ignorance is shining through here.

During the Bonnie and Clyde crime spree, there was (and continues to be to this date) debate over their relationship, whether or not Bonnie was accomplice or victim. I could cite many other such examples where the relationship of some parties involved with the clear suspect is ambiguous.

Charles Manson, anyone?

You have not the first clue as to police proceedure nor how dangerous it was for the officer to perform this maneuver. Stop stamping your feet in the corner, already.


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#1038514 09/01/04 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by bishop375:
Originally posted by arch:
If they dont know what the relationship is, they shouldnt be executing deadly force.




They weren't. There was no guarantee that it WOULD kill the occupants, and that is what you are missing. Deadly force usually entails shooting someone. They weren't using deadly force, they were using a tactic. Unfortunately, people died in the process. That does NOT make it lethal force. Intent is what makes the difference. There was no intention of killing those two. It was designed to take them off of the road and it was successful in doing just that.




I'd have to disagree, Bishop. At any speed above 35 MPH, the standard maximum for employing the PIT, it would be considered deadly force by the courts. But then, so would spike strips at that speed, or shooting the radiator or tires at any speed. Point- no other viable options.


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#1038515 09/01/04 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Point- no other viable options.




No, there were no other viable options. But, I doubt the INTENT was to kill them. The intent was simply to stop them. I'm nitpicking on the "lethal force" statement earlier.



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#1038516 09/01/04 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by arch:

If you can not agree with those 10 FACTS. Then you no longer need to speak. If you can, Then my point has been made.




So let me understand your "point" of the quoted sentence. Either we agree with you, or we shouldn't speak anymore??? You have got to be the supidest person I have ever seen on these boards...


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#1038517 09/01/04 07:05 PM
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I am waiting for a ( like Sandman, I am sure one will follow soon) court case. The court will tell us what to believe. I have this gut feeling that the parents of the passenger will win a case aginst the officer and the GSP. I hope I am wrong, but some crazy [censored] has happened in court cases. This case will tell us if the officer was wrong or right. The GSP can say he was right all they want (which I still believe he was) , but the court will have the final decision.


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