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Originally posted by 95Mike:
Originally posted by Roz 1999 SVT-C:
For the issues you may have with the Vorcrap, you will probably end up spending more on it then with the Turbo.
I haven't had any issues with my kit. For the price I'm selling it for (and goodies included) you'd have $4,000 to address future reliability before matching the cost of a turbo.
Let me repharse myself...theres no chip, no intercooler (so you not cooling the air charge, so your not getting the power you should, jack shaft problems (not saying yours in particular, but the majority of people who i ahve read about have had problems...even with revised ones) and the turbo is making more power and tq....then you have to get the car tuned.....I believe demonSVT priced the 2 kits out before, and with everything included with the ADC turbo and everyhting thats not included with the Vortech, you ended up spending more by getting the Vortech, then you would have by getting the turbo....To me thats a issue....im not saying yours is bad, or you wasted your money, cause if you enjoy it then thats cool!!!
But me personaly, i would get the turbo, because it comes with everyhting you need, and i don;t have to spend extra money on things i know i will need or want in the close future.
Lupe
EDIT: I was comparing New to New.....Used, i still wouldnt reconmend it...casue if it does break, and Vortech won;t help...thats ******$$$ that you spent and are not getting back....and if it does break and you have to send it in to get it fixed or get the jack shaft replaced, then thats more money......then they need to tune there car, get an intercooler if they want to cool the charge and get the most out of there investment....If Vortech fixes the problems and makes it reliable, then well see after testing....but from what Demon has told me and many others its not worht it.
Also i talked with buck shot...the reason he used the Vortech instead of the turbo, was because it was what was available at the time....i beleive this was a 1 or 2 year project.
Last edited by Roz 1999 SVT-C; 08/16/04 12:55 AM.
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles
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Look at ADC's own dynos though, especially the 3L Vortech vs the 3L ADC Turbo, at 3 PSI more than the Vortech, the ADC is still making less total horsepower, though it makes more torque. The thing that bothered me is look at the power curve of the turbo, spikes and drops and climbs. The Vortech, a steady, broad, even climb. I say dyno both at the same boost level and I am sure alot of us here knows who would post the higher numbers and the better curve.
As for the jackshaft issue, as I understand it, Vortech finally has it right in the second revision (Which came back to the market this past April). For those who have or are buying the older kits, KnuKoncepts will beef the jackshaft up, last time I checked he was selling his kit in the classifieds too, for $2,000.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
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just for the record, the vortec is 50 state smog legal with a c.a.r.b. number.... Since i live in the wonderful state of Cali, passing smog is a thing to consider.
Totally sold out for a 90 GT vert.... 1/4 mile is almost the same as my modded svt w/n2o was...
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Originally posted by Twisted6:
Look at ADC's own dynos though, especially the 3L Vortech vs the 3L ADC Turbo, at 3 PSI more than the Vortech, the ADC is still making less total horsepower, though it makes more torque. The thing that bothered me is look at the power curve of the turbo, spikes and drops and climbs. The Vortech, a steady, broad, even climb. I say dyno both at the same boost level and I am sure alot of us here knows who would post the higher numbers and the better curve.
That's a 2.5L turbo you are comparing to a 3L S/C  (we are talking about the 390 HP ones right???)
Also it's not the T28 in the kit. That was good for about 300FWHP/280FWTQ with the smaller intercooler and at 12-13psi.
That's also on a BONE STOCK 00 SVT engine!!!
The 390/360 numbers were a T3/4 (57 trim - small housing IIRC) on an 8.5:1 forged 2.5L engine.
The S/C numbers are on a car with at least 30k in mods. He damn well better be making power!!! 
You will not see that out of the stock kit nor near it but it does show the Vortech's potential when it's built properly and Rick sure did everything right. 
To really see the truth they'd have to be dyno'd back to back. I agree.
I'd still put my money on the 2.5L for TQ and maybe a tie for HP. The Vortech should pull the HP lead out if he spins it to 7500rpm or so.
That goes for the T28 vs either S/C engine as well. It's no secret the T28 was specifically chosen for it's broad power curve. It runs out of air around 300 wheels. (like I stated earlier)
However you just seem to be bench racing PEAK numbers which do not tell the story at all. Matter of fact by themselves they are pretty much worthless.
The turbo makes a better overall curve. No question.
Hell for that matter...
If you bench raced "peak numbers" then every Vortech car would beat me. Too bad it's the other way around since my goal was overall power curve verse peak numbers. 
I'm just a lowly NA low compression 3L to boot. 
My goal was to spite the Vortech "kit" and like I said, "I beam from ear to ear about it" 
If you want to pit 3L vs 3L
Tom's bone stock (including cams!) budget oval port 3L turbo project did 325/330 at 9psi. (hacked up stock precats too!)
With a power curve that slaughters the 3L S/C until about 6000rpm.
We won't even talk cost vs cost...
So this just strengthens my position that the Vortech kit "as is" SUCKS ASS.
With about $1500-2000 it can be made fairly reliable. (shaft bearing & intercooler)
However if the kit is $3500.
Injectors & fuel pump $200+
Chip and custom tuning $500+
Then tack on the reliability NEEDS and...
That's $5500-6000.
Add some more if you want to match the headers ($600+) and filter ($50) and...
You get the picture... It's not nearly as inexpensive as they make it seem.
Now if you can pick up an inspected kit for cheap and spend the extra money on the reliability mods you are getting somewhere.
It certainly does make power. It's mean as hell on the highway too!!!
It definitely has a lot of potential but it needs help getting there or better yet STAYING there.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Originally posted by Twisted6:
Look at ADC's own dynos though, especially the 3L Vortech vs the 3L ADC Turbo, at 3 PSI more than the Vortech, the ADC is still making less total horsepower, though it makes more torque. The thing that bothered me is look at the power curve of the turbo, spikes and drops and climbs. The Vortech, a steady, broad, even climb. I say dyno both at the same boost level and I am sure alot of us here knows who would post the higher numbers and the better curve.
Warmonger 3.0L TC'ed - 300 whp @ 5.75 psi
Kinger 3.0L SC'ed - 300 whp @ 9psi
The reason you dont see any spike in the SC is because its probably not even making any boost yet!  
And ill take boat loads more torque anyday.
Jim Hahn
1996 T-Red Contour SE Reborn 4/6/04
3.0L swap and Arizona Dyno Chip Turbo Kit
364 whp, 410 wtq @ 4,700 rpm
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This is the dyno I was talking about: 
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
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New for new I agree the vortech pales in comparison to almost every aspect of the turbo. I'd take 20 less hp anyday if I could get a nice bottom and midrange out of it (let alone the bottom/mid and good top like the turbo gives). I just am a little dumbfounded why I can't sell my kit for the smoking deal I put it up for. All I know is my kit (since I've owned it) hasn't had a single problem and the $/hp is hard to beat, yet everyone is staying away from it like the plague. I'm really not sure what I need to do to find a buyer.
95 SE Modded - Gone
98 E0 Black SVT - Gone
98 se sport - Broken
00 T-Red SVT - Nice
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Originally posted by JrodCSVT3258:
and if there are anyone willing to sell one for 1500 if they are worth it. thanks jarrod
I'd sell you mine, but I won't include gauges or the battery relocation kit for that price.
95 SE Modded - Gone
98 E0 Black SVT - Gone
98 se sport - Broken
00 T-Red SVT - Nice
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Originally posted by Twisted6:
This is the dyno I was talking about:
Okay I see they posted Tom's baseline dyno from his original setup. (not the ADC kit btw)
Even the stock IMRC point as the dyno plainly shows.
I still don't see the 3 higher psi from the turbo setup though?
That looks like the 5.75psi base spring dyno verses a 7psi Vortech dyno.
Even being down a bit over 1psi you see the better curve the turbo makes and at 5.75psi it's under it's efficiency range too.
Even still it has about 20-30 more HP and 40-50 more TQ throughout the entire powerband. (that's with those monstrous header primaries too  )
Which do you think would be much quicker through the gears at any given rpm?
How about at the same boost level?
Now in the dyno the S/C does pass the turbo at ~6700rpm.
Then consider the turbo stalled at 6500rpm based on the low boost pressure.
Like I said. Bench racing peak numbers is meaningless.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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