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Now there's a post I can agree with 100%.
This shell (shells now, I guess) are nothing more than one more piece to the case, they are not the smoking gun. Most of the other things you mentioned are FAR more damning to Saddam than this shell.
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Yes, all the other things are more damning evidence that these shells (2 of them so far, the sarin and the mustard) However, I think the biggest benefit from finding the shells are the morale booster they are. Any troops, and citizens that might have been doubting before now have more than just intelligence proof to go on. People like to have something they can see and feel, these shells are just that.
Yes, all of our intelligence that we had about him having and making WMD's sure as hell is better than finding the shell, but I think the shells are going to prove to be more important as things go on. I think that we might now have a better idea what we are looking for. I think that we have been looking for a warehouse type facility with tons of the stuff. I now think that these stockpiles are gone, being either raided or distributed to the anti american forces in Iraq, as it has been reported that our military doesn't think that the people who made this bomb knew what they had on their hands. Now that we know this we now need to look alot closer, as it is a whole lot easier to hide a shell than a 55 gallon drum. No, I don't have evidence of that, it's just a gut feeling I have. I hope I am not right, actually, because now instead of just an explosive roadside device, they could possibly have chemical/explosive devices that haven't been stored improperly and could be still potent. And I thank you for a civilized response  -Nick
Last edited by 99blacksesport; 05/18/04 06:02 AM.
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I haven't read any of this post, but I can imagine, just to be funny, Saddam sitting in his prison cell after hearing this news. DOH! [slaps himself on the forhead] WHY ARE THEY USING THAT? I TOLD THEM NOT TOO!! IDIOTS!!
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport: Yes, all the other things are more damning evidence that these shells (2 of them so far, the sarin and the mustard) However, I think the biggest benefit from finding the shells are the morale booster they are. Any troops, and citizens that might have been doubting before now have more than just intelligence proof to go on. People like to have something they can see and feel, these shells are just that.
However this is not what your first post states. Before you were waying heavily on the fact that these shells are "THE PROOF" that WMD exist in Iraq. I still don't think these shells are nearly as significant as certain people would like to believe. Morale boost, maybe, but certainly not proof.
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport: So now we come to the past 1-2 years, people calling for Bush to resign as president because we have had "no proof" of the WMDs, as our searches of Iraq were not going well. People today want the smoking gun evidence that we will never be able to provide. All we are most likey going to be able to do is say, here is all of this evidence. By themselves they don't ammount to much, but together they clearly show both a history of creating WMDs of all types, and evidence that it had not been stopped.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll repeat that evidence uncovered now doesn't change what was presented last year. Many people think the evidence originally presented was inadequate; finding and eliminating a stockpile now would be great, but doesn't excuse a Machiavellian invasion based on inadequate evidence.
Not necessarily my opinion, but just pointing this out so we can better understand the intracacies of the situation.
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The only people that ever doubted WMD existance in Iraq were extrememly out of touch with reality or just incoherently and unforgivingly stupid. Then again, few people have made the blanket-statement that they didn't exist in Iraq.
AGAIN, the existance of WMD in Iraq has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt when UN inspectors went in, discovered and ultimately destroyed ALL of the KNOWN and ACCOUNTED WMD from '91 forwards.
Apart fom the politically-charged idiocy from the press, many experts (not all, though)are still of the opinion that they didn't get ALL of Iraq's WMD nor did they scrap ALL of their programs and equipment before we invaded. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that points to this fact, but again no "smoking gun"...
Flash to today:
Two chem shells have been dug up or used against Coalition forces. While compelling and interesting, it CATEGORECALLY DOES NOT point to hidden stashes of WMD in Iraq. Period. Not when there was hundreds of TONS of VX, Sarin and Anthrax that are missing and totally unaccounted for. It's true that they were of the type that was banned by the UN and should have been destroyed, but this isn't a HUGE find or complete vindication of Coalition WMD claims.
In my opinion, the recent finds were likely accidentally placed in a conventional stash and unwittingly detonated as IED's, without the insurgents knowing their true nature.
I hope I'm wrong and these guys are pulling stuff out of a MUCH larger cache full of chem shells, as this WOULD be total vindication of intelligence claims if we found it.
I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are pulling this from a centralized WMD cache, though.
No, given the amount that still remains missing, we need to find TONS of shells and the like. Two chem shells is certainly compelling and interesting, but it doesn't overly-excite me, not when there's been REAMS of other evidence that has pointed to illegal programs being run up to the invasion, dual-purpose equipment hidden and subsequently found by us, illegal bio-cultures found in places, etc.
Patience. The hunt continues. It will probably continue on after the election has passed us by this year as Hussein and his cronies had YEARS to hide stuff or move it...
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Patience. The hunt continues. It will probably continue on after the election has passed us by this year as Hussein and his cronies had YEARS to hide stuff or move it...
I do agree with most of what you said. I still do believe that these 2 shells are a find thats greater in importance than you make it out to be, but that is our differing of opinions and thats fine.
As to what I quoted from you... You hit it right on with that. There was an interview on FoxNews last night with an ex -nuclear scientist under Saddam. He told about Iraq having a large stash of chemical and biological weapons and equipment until 1991 when he left, which is not in dispute. He was asked where he thought the weapons or chemicals now were, and he thinks they are either in Syria or literally buried in the desert somewhere. He told about the Iraq/Syria border being a smuggler's dream, that you could move anything you wanted between the two countries. If they got into syria, he believes that they were moved there, and probably still stored there in tanker trucks.
I hope they are budied in the desert somewhere. The fact that Syria could have access to that kind of destructive power, to either use themselves or distribute to terrorists is a scary thought... -Nick
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport: ...There was an interview on FoxNews last night with an ex -nuclear scientist under Saddam...
I'm hoping that you watch Fox "News" for its entertainment value and not because you really believe it to be a "Fair and Balanced" source of news.
Sometimes I wonder if Fox "News" actually aims to be a parody of real news programs.
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I agree with The President, Saddam needed to be taken out off the country, but it looks like he lied to us and if this is true I guess I have to stand by Georgey.
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp: Originally posted by 99blacksesport: ...There was an interview on FoxNews last night with an ex -nuclear scientist under Saddam...
I'm hoping that you watch Fox "News" for its entertainment value and not because you really believe it to be a "Fair and Balanced" source of news.
Sometimes I wonder if Fox "News" actually aims to be a parody of real news programs.
Fox is no worse than the jokes of reporting that CNN, MSNBC CBS, ABC and most other have become...
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