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1,200 troops and $300 million that Spain provided sounds pretty "vital" to me. Spaniards are an emotional bunch, not weak; the election results prove this fact as the Popular Party was set to win in most polls.
So, like the mobsters of the early 1900's, Al-Qaeda has successfully managed a shakedown on a population; back off or more will follow seemed to be the message. It seems there exists more anger towards the Popular Party for helping oust Hussein (a dictator comparable with Hitler) than the actual group that orcestrated the bombing. In short, the masses needed an outlet of anger and definitely found one in the voting booth.
Rarely does anything good come out of a reflexive action taken under anger and fear. Now that Al-Qaeda (I'm making a guess that it was indeed them that bombed the train) knows what will make governments listen, expect more of the same.
I've pretty much accepted that fact that most people on this planet are thick-headed enough to believe that the ONLY time to remove a threat is when it has developed and matured to the point where only MASSIVE casualties and loss of life would ensue, thereby making it "politically correct", popular and ABSOLUTELY necessary to take action.
I'll let you figure out what other time in European history this happened and the results that came from it...
JaTo
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Originally posted by JaTo:
I know nothing of the upcoming Prime Minister
I can tell you quite a bit about Snr. Zapatero-
Hes a freaking nut job. Now granted he isnt clinically insane, but he has sided WITH Batasuna (the political arm of ETA) many many times. It is so sad that the people of spain have to be burdened with the socialist ideals again. Last time the PSOE was in power they almost brought the whole county to its collective knees. The PP may not have been the most popular at the time of the elections but the PSOE was NOT the answer.
If you think spain had a semi-indifferent stance on "Terror" just wait until Zapatero is in full power. Not only will spain become politically Anti-American they may full well decide to back all international law against the USA.
Only time will tell, but history has its own story to tell, and as far as spain+PSOE is concerned = 
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Originally posted by Antonio:
Alittle off topic. I hear the families of soldiers are paying for extra body armor on the news this morning. I know there are few soldiers here that was in IRAQ. Can they comment? My cousin was but he was not on the front lines( Helo mechanic.) So, I doubt he would know.
True story. For one reason or another, DOD has been foot-dragging on getting body armor out. This website, which is a blog by a National Guardsman who's been in Iraq for a loooong time (he just made it back stateside) explains a lot about what's been going on, if you're willing to take the time to look through his archives.
http://www.iraqnow.blogspot.com/
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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The atrocity quickly spawned a political spin contest, though neither side had a factual basis for their assertions. Within hours of the atrocity, Aznar focussed blame on the Basque outfit ETA, while Zapatero tried to pin it on Al-Qaeda. Aznar's message was calculated to increase support for his tough-on-terror stance. Zapatero's message, was calculated to persuade voters that Spain had stupidly picked a fight with people it had no beef with, and was paying the price.
The atrocitry was politicized immediately, so that whatever assumptions voters took to the polls, they were working from speculation and spin â?? not facts.
This is no victory for terrorism. Rather, it is a defeat for democracy brought about by the cheap politicization of national security. One candidate promises to keep us safe from mean, angry people; another promises to keep us safe from the ineptitude of the first. National security becomes a search for what people wish to hear, followed by a crowd-pleasing performance enacted for political advantage.
John
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Originally posted by JaTo:
I've pretty much accepted that fact that most people on this planet are thick-headed enough to believe that the ONLY time to remove a threat is when it has developed and matured to the point where only MASSIVE casualties and loss of life would ensue, thereby making it "politically correct", popular and ABSOLUTELY necessary to take action.
I'll let you figure out what other time in European history this happened and the results that came from it...
A war that cost 120% of the U.S.'s GDP at the time, a war in which 50 million people died, including 400,000 American soldiers.
The scenarios are similar, except this time we didn't waste time bullchitting with a tyrant, we outright own3d his sorry a$$.
Iraq war info - .5% of the U.S.'s GDP, little over 500 American soldiers died.
Which one is better? I'll take the latter, thank you very much.
-J
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Chit, sorry about the off-topic post...
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Originally posted by Horse:
...Now granted he isnt clinically insane, but he has sided WITH Batasuna (the political arm of ETA) many many times...
Sh!t. That's rather frightening that this guy found ANYTHING in common to side with an outlawed political party full of nutcases.
Last edited by JaTo; 03/15/04 10:53 PM.
JaTo
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Originally posted by midwicket:
The atrocity quickly spawned a political spin contest, though neither side had a factual basis for their assertions. Within hours of the atrocity, Aznar focussed blame on the Basque outfit ETA, while Zapatero tried to pin it on Al-Qaeda. Aznar's message was calculated to increase support for his tough-on-terror stance. Zapatero's message, was calculated to persuade voters that Spain had stupidly picked a fight with people it had no beef with, and was paying the price.
True. Interestingly, initial evidence could point either direction. The timing of the attack was well planned to be sure. Not sure the "spin" made any difference though..I think they just "reacted"..
Really, had anyone actually applied some cognative effort to the situation, they would have concluded that NO FIRM CONCLUSION as to wish group was to blame could be reached so rapidy after the attack. All they REALLY NEEDED to realize was that a (any) terrorist group was obviously attempting to alter the results of an election that was leaning a certain way (in favor of the incumbantcy) toward the alternative (the socialists in this case).
Without ANY additional knowlege, to send a message to (whatever) terrorists that the people of Spain were not going to sucume to this tactic, the choice was clear...
Unfortunately, they made the other choice....
Jato,
Very nerve racking indeed that the same could happen here. Only difference is that we had 9/11 first. Before Iraq. American's KNOW we were attacked first. Bush has made the war on terror his centerpiece not just a "me too" campaign slogan.
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the spanish knee-jerked.they'll find out what the new guys about soon enough.
there is enough obsfucation on the perps part that running it down will be a long process.
one point i must make-the original gulf war was a U.N. sanctioned action to liberate kuwait.they blinked this time around.the last one wouldn't have been required if the first one had run its natural course(how did saddam NOT get offed?)i'll tell you.
at the time bush snr didn't want an allied iran/iraq.it suited him to keep the 2 countries at each others throats.
shia and sunni-let them duke it out george.
that a regime change was right is undeniable.same could be said for other countries(zimbabwe anyone?).thing is...other countries don't have the oil reserves
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4523577/One of the better summary articles/opinions I've read, as it brings up a number of very salient points.
JaTo
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