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What the heck are you replying to??

Jato's post (couple pages back)

I haven't seen the movie yet---I might go see the movie---However, some thoughts: I don't buy into the theology that Christ suffered X amount of brutality to atone for X amount of sin. Again, I haven't seen the movie yet but what I fear is that it will be a hugh flog fest---And a big Boohoo tear jerker--hence, He did this for me. I get offended by statements that "Christ did all this suffering for all of us".

But, the reviews I've heard so far seem positive. So I might just go see the movie. I am no longer Christian, BTW. I used to be a missionary for two years in Haiti in a former life. Now, I am Agnostic. I threw Christian theology out the window years ago as I could no longer reconcile several Christian tenets; namely: the tension between faith and works, grace and salvation and sin. Supposedly by the Fall of Adam all men fell when sin was introduced. Hence, we ALL need a redeemer or a Savior to come back in the presence of God. This Savior will intercess for our sins and pay the price for the wages of our transgressions. In a nutshell, that is what mainstream Christian theology preaches.

Then comes the confusion for all of the rest of the sectarian world. One camp of Christians believe that we must 'work out' our salvation by doing good works and by 'earning' our salvation. Hey, no arguement here. Good works are a good thing. Being just, true, charitable and doing good to all men is a righteous thing. Well, the other camp says you can't 'earn' your way to heaven. In other words, salvation or grace is a free gift. You can't earn it. You can only 'deserve' it. The one requirement is 'faith'. You believe in Christ, profess his 'name' and voila, you are SAVED. Glory Hallejuiah. It sure works for a bunch of convicts who are afraid of going to hell. But seriously, all people make mistakes and have skeletons in their closets. So, to have understanding, forgiveness, mercy is a good thing. Hey, nobody is perfect. In the works-only-camp, everybody is stamped out of the same cookie cutter mold, strives to be perfect, shuns those who aren't, and maintians a zero defect mentality. Nobody can live up to those standards for very long. We need mercy. But then the other camp goes to the extreme and says good works aren't required. Only 'faith' in professing Lord. Very forgiving and appealing to us mere mortals, yes, but it's an empty hollow religion with no substance. All sectarian debate is swept aside except for the faith vs works issue.

In essences the only thing the two camps have in common is a NEED for a Redeemer because 'sin' has entered the world. Well, here is where I threw the baby out with the bath water. I no longer believe in 'sin'. It is a Christian concept only. True, there are universal crimes against humanity like rape and murder and from a humanistic standpoint, nobody disagrees that those things are 'wrong'. However, just about everything else is subject to interpretive morality. I base my morality on consequences and my ability to to accept the consquences. For illustrative purposes, Is it 'wrong' for me to live with my girlfriend? Well, that's a personal decision and frankly none of your business but if I may clue you into my way of thinking, I believe sex between two mature consenting adults is again, frankly nobody's business accept those involved. If I am ready to accept the consequences of a pregnancy, how is it 'wrong'? On the otherhand, if my young daughter would so chose to have sex and accidentally get knocked up, is that 'right'? Or 'wrong'? Based upon her ability to accept the consequences, I would say it is wrong. But that is in a lot of ways, none of my [censored] business---Except that I would be the parent bearing the responsibility. Even then, how could my daughter call her offspring, or my offspring's offspring a mistake? Life ain't black and white folks. Morality is relative. So, I do not accept the concept of sin. It is a Christian invention. You throw out sin and you have no need for a redeemer. Without sin, there is no need for an Atonement.

Sure, people do stupid things. There are crimes against humanity. Humanity, perhaps civility requires forgiveness and mercy. Some cultures do not accept the death penelty for that reason. Our culture at the very least does not accept cruel and unusual punishments. In wartime, we have the Geneva convention. There are basic humanitarian rights and civil liberties. Does that make me a humanist? Then I am a humanist.

My other contention with Christianity---From someone who for half his lifetime has immersed himself upon the subject, is bothered by the basic lack of historical collaboration in the Jesus story. The only source outside the Bible that mentions Jesus is Josephus, the great Jewish historian. However, it is strongly believed that some Christian author inserted the Jesus story within the Josephus's works.

My other contention with the Bible is that all of the Gosepel where written well after the epistles. In some cases, many, many years (up to 100 yrs) afer the birth of Christ. And none of these gospel writers ever claimed to know Jesus! I find it amusing that the Bible gives a one liner mentioning Jesus appearing to 500 people but spends versus tried to offer appologetic claims to rebutt the Roman contention that Jesus didn't really resurrect. The Bible seems to go out of it's way to show the reader that Jesus really did resurrect.

I don't doubt that Jesus is a true historical figure but I am very agnostic towards the idea that he is the Christ, the long awaited Jewish Messiah. In fact, I don't believe in Judaism. It's all a myth. All cultures have them and Christianity just so happens to pervade American culture (And Western civilization for that matter) quite pervasively. If you want to see how ridiculous religion can be, take a look at Islamic Fundamentalism as a bunch of whackos (albeit devout whackos) that drove planes into the New York Twin Towers. I now view religion more from an anthropolical point of view. Perhaps that is the reason I might go see the movie. And, in a former life, I devoutly once believe in Jesus the Christ.

PS: I hear the movie is a work of art.

Peace.

i know everyone has alot of issues with it...but i feel that mainly it magnifies the violence in Jesus last days when it should be glorifying it or creating an uplifting of his death.. The movie seems to focus more on the death and violence...not his passion

thats my 2 cents

I hate to say this, but...



psssssssssst, it's a MOVIE.

Not an historic record, not a "proof" of anything. Nobody alive today knows what really happened. This is one possibility. One of an endless amounts of possibilities, including that it NEVER happened the way most Christians believe it, that it NEVER happened the way anyone else believes it, and it's entirely possible that it just may have happened EXACTLY how most Christians believe.

My take on the whole religious idea... I think I believe there WAS a man named Jesus, was the son of Joseph, was a carpenter, possibly a philosopher, maybe even some sort of magician. Was he the Son of God? I dunno. I guess anything's possible. But, if my friends and I wrote a book now, buried it for a few thousand years, and it was "historically accurate" as far as names and locations existing, would someone take it as another form of the Bible? In the time of its writing, there was no real way to verify the events, save for 4 men writing different versions of essentially the same story. The rest is quite possibly a fever dream (Revelation) or a handful of zealots/madmen who were freaks over this guy... I've seen enough people praising Elvis in my lifetime to assume that he could be some sort of god. The way I see it, take enough base in reality, create a wonderful story, toss in some moral twist, some incredible fiction/miracle, and voila, you've got enough of a story thata is historically/geographically truthful that the rest "just might have happened, too" in a lot of people's eyes.

My big question comes in the form of what is NOT told of Jesus in the Gospels... we never see him as a teenager, or even a very young adult. He jumps in age from VERY early teens (12 or so) to about 30, shortly before the time of his death. Why is this nearly 20 year span painfully clearly absent from not 1 or 2, but, ALL 4 Gospels, yet the rest of the material was found in tact enough to be published? Seems a little... fishy to me, if you'll pardon the pun.

("Life ain't black and white folks.")

Who said life was black and white? Who said Christianity was black and white. If it were black and white we would be robots. God (for those of us that believe in Him) gave all mankind a very crucial gift that is very elemental in the faith/belief that is being discussed. FREE WILL! If we didn't have free will, and it was black and white, we'd all be robots that had to follow a prescribed path or life. God gave us the choice to accept or deny salvation. I accept it very thankfully. My short life here on earth, even if I live to 100yrs will be nothing but a grain of sand compared to eternity. That's the REAL life i'm waiting for. As for me, i've found great contentment and happiness living under God's will. It's only when you give up your selfishness and open your mind (unlike many of you reading this) can you fully understand the capabilities of Christian Freedom. As for the movie, I can't wait to see it. If you have any questions....ask.
jeremy

I'm sorry you feel that way. If it wasn't for God and Jesus's love, I wouldn't be here today. I have had one experience where at the time I fel truly connected to the Lord. I was at a very hard time in my life, I time where I didn't realize some of things I do now and I wouldn't be here if I hadn't had that connection. I wish I could feel that connection again, but it hasn't happened since, though maybe if I would actually start living my life right then I could have it... All I'm saying is I'm glad I believe in Jesus.