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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Bottom if you have a car lift. Top of you don't.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 149
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 149 |
We pulled mine trani and all. Make sure you remove the hood for better clearance. We pulled with the trani because we diecided to redo the clutch while we had it out. It wasn't too bad to pull, just needed people around to help guide the engine out and then back in. We put it back in with the trani attached too, so it can be done. Good luck! Glad to see people still willing to put money in the old sirls of the club! 
95 Teal Se 5 spd,duratech, loaded(except moonroof) no mods.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115
CEG\'er
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OP
CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115 |
Quote:
We pulled with the trani because we diecided to redo the clutch while we had it out.
Since the clutch is attached to the engine, why did you have to pull the trans as well? I would think that by pushing in the clutch and seperating the two you could just pull the engine and leave the tranny in?
Quote:
Good luck! Glad to see people still willing to put money in the old sirls of the club!
Well, just can't afford a new car right now and even though this car is a major PIA to work on  , I still love the way it drives!  As a side note, I would really like to met the packaging engineer(s) responsible for the layout of the V6 cars! It would not have to be in a dark alley either! I'd cap em' in Times Square at high noon on a bright sunny day!! 
I originaly wanted to do a 3L conversion, but again its a case of bucks! I figure while I have the old engine out, I'll totally rebuild it. I'd like to P&P the heads, use the new ARP head and main studs, find some forged pistons and connecting rods and machine the crank to accept better bearings! (these bearing problems seem to be a recurring problem with the Duratecs!) Maybe I'll see about a stroker crank while I'm at it! Basicly I want to rebuid it better than new and make the sucker BULLIT PROOF ! These are sweet engines, (and I'm a Chevy fan!), but they seem a little fragile. By doing the rebuild a little at a time as I can afford it, I can build something that will survive nitrous or some form of turbo or supercharger. Even if I never use any power adder, I'll have an engine that will survive no matter what.
Happy New Year to all!
Steve
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,732
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,732 |
Originally posted by Stevedrivr:
Quote:
We pulled with the trani because we diecided to redo the clutch while we had it out.
Since the clutch is attached to the engine, why did you have to pull the trans as well? I would think that by pushing in the clutch and seperating the two you could just pull the engine and leave the tranny in?
Quote:
Good luck! Glad to see people still willing to put money in the old sirls of the club!
Well, just can't afford a new car right now and even though this car is a major PIA to work on , I still love the way it drives! As a side note, I would really like to met the packaging engineer(s) responsible for the layout of the V6 cars! It would not have to be in a dark alley either! I'd cap em' in Times Square at high noon on a bright sunny day!!
I originaly wanted to do a 3L conversion, but again its a case of bucks! I figure while I have the old engine out, I'll totally rebuild it. I'd like to P&P the heads, use the new ARP head and main studs, find some forged pistons and connecting rods and machine the crank to accept better bearings! (these bearing problems seem to be a recurring problem with the Duratecs!) Maybe I'll see about a stroker crank while I'm at it! Basicly I want to rebuid it better than new and make the sucker BULLIT PROOF ! These are sweet engines, (and I'm a Chevy fan!), but they seem a little fragile. By doing the rebuild a little at a time as I can afford it, I can build something that will survive nitrous or some form of turbo or supercharger. Even if I never use any power adder, I'll have an engine that will survive no matter what.
Happy New Year to all!
Steve
what your doing is soing to cost ALOT more than a 3L
if your investing that kind of money, spend a little extra for a 3L block
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
MTX75 w/ Homebrew Zetec FD and Torsen Complete
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by Stevedrivr:
I originaly wanted to do a 3L conversion, but again its a case of bucks! I figure while I have the old engine out, I'll totally rebuild it. I'd like to P&P the heads, use the new ARP head and main studs, find some forged pistons and connecting rods and machine the crank to accept better bearings! (these bearing problems seem to be a recurring problem with the Duratecs!) Maybe I'll see about a stroker crank while I'm at it! Basicly I want to rebuid it better than new and make the sucker BULLIT PROOF ! These are sweet engines, (and I'm a Chevy fan!), but they seem a little fragile. By doing the rebuild a little at a time as I can afford it, I can build something that will survive nitrous or some form of turbo or supercharger. Even if I never use any power adder, I'll have an engine that will survive no matter what.
Steve
You are broke, but want to do an engine swap. Bad start.
You are broke but want a stroker crank (I.E. several thousand dollars alone to have ONE billet crank custom ground)
You are broke but want all forged internals.
You are broke but want to machine the engine to accept different bearings (  ) even though there are Clevite's available for it already. On top of that it is only the OEM rod bearings that are suspect and that's an easy fix all by itself.
You still don't have any clue as to what specs you want to build the engine too (turbo, S/C, N/A, etc) but think you should start anyway.
You are basically pipe dreaming out loud here and doing it without much if any understanding of what you want to build or will have to build to meet your demands.
Then on top of that the little bits of information you may have gained already seem to be flawed or more likely just hits of worst case scenario spouted as 100% fact.
My advice to you is to do A LOT of saving, A LOT of studying, A LOT of learning, and not do it out loud in this particular way.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 49
New CEG\'er
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New CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 49 |
I agree with you on that DEMON....not to mention, what about the oil pump?...if u munched some bearings...what caused it in the first place? bad oil pump?,,, or crank walk at high RPM's?/....either case, where is all the metal from the bearings?....i know this because i just munched some bearings....i yanked it pulled it all apart, cleaned out all the galleries and water ports, then i rebuilt it with tru seal rings and clevite bearings, and oh yeah...a new oil pump...and no i didnt bother to change the physics of my engine to run anything other than high flow N/A power., as for the top of my engine....thats top secret...talk to ya all later....(yea im from up north...for all u rednecks...J/K)
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475 |
Wait a sec ... you don't have the money for a 3L but you can afford forged rods, pistons and custom crank and bearings? I call BS!
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115
CEG\'er
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OP
CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115 |
Whoa, sounds like you were having a bad day Mr. DemonSVT!
Since I have no desire to start a flame war, nor make enemies of people I do not know, allow me to clear up some misunderstandings and presumptions made in error.
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You are broke,but want to do an engine swap. Bad start.
No, I am not broke, far from it. However, like many people during the holiday season, I must budget my funds. The "have to's" and "need to's" must come before the "wan't to's." Marriage, mortgage and family come before my gearhead projects, hence doing an engine swap instead of a full on rebuild . (DemonSVT,I see by your profile you list "family",(albeit as one of your "hobbies"?), perhaps you can understand my priorities. By any chance did you do any research and look at my profile?) Swap or rebuild, either process is entirely within my capabilities. I started working on cars at 12 years of age and at 43 have rebuilt more engines, transmissions, differentials etc, etc than I care to remember.
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You are broke but want a stroker crank (I.E. several thousand dollars alone to have ONE billet crank custom ground) You are broke but want all forged internals.
You are broke but want to machine the engine to accept different bearings ...
One does not need to go to a custom forged/billet crank to obtain either stoker capability or enlarged chamfers for greater crankshaft fillet clearance. As far as the stock crank is concerned, plasma spray metalizing can be used to build up the bearing surfaces before re machining to non stock dimensions. Shot peening, cryogenic processes and other forms of stress relieving can help create a Cast crankshaft with horsepower capabilities far in excess of what a Duratec could make . Offset journal grinding can be used to alter the stroke also by reducing crankshaft journal diameter. (As I'm sure you must be aware, all of these except cryo freezing are common practices in good, well equipped hi performance machine shops.)Contrary to conventional wisdom, smaller journal diameter can actually improve bearing longevity. All else being equal, the smaller bearing journals will last longer because of lower FPM (feet per minute)rating. A critical factor in bearing wear is the FPM rating; smaller bearings at the same rotational speed have lower FPM ratings and longer life. If your wondering about my bearing knowledge, I worked in the bearing/power transmission industry for many years and have received factory technical training from such respected bearing manufacturers as SKF, Timken, Torrington-Fafnir, Federal Mogul and Dana Corporation. (The same Dana that owns Clevite.) I have worked with horsepower, torque and gear ratios as both a vocation and an avocation for many years. By doing a little research ,I see by your profile you list "automotive" as your occupation. You could be anything from an engineer for one of the "Big Three" to a cashier at the local Pep Boys, but since I don't know, I will not make assumptions about your technical qualifications. Perchance did you even check to see what I do for a living?
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even though there are Clevite's available for it already. On top of that it is only the OEM rod bearings that are suspect and that's an easy fix all by itself.
The Clevite's for the Duratec are not a hi performance bearing, they are a "P suffix" stock , OEM replacement. At present, they are the only one offered. (This can be confirmed by calling Dana/Clevite @ 734-975-4777, ask for Carry in the tech dept.) Since they are a STOCK OEM replacement, they would have no better capabilities than the stock bearings. Unless of course the stock Ford bearings have a defect in materials or manufacturing, then that would be another matter entirely.
My concept was to machine the crank to accept something like the Clevite "H" Series hi performance bearings by having the crank machined with oversize fillets to accommodate them. From the Clevite web site:
"H-Series:
These bearings are identified by a letter "H" in the part number suffix. Part numbering is based on the same core number as the standard passenger car parts for the same application. These bearings were developed primarily for use in NASCAR type racing but are suitable for all types of competition engines.
H-series bearings have a medium level of eccentricity, high crush and rod bearings have a hardened steel back and thin overlay. These bearings also have enlarged chamfers for greater crankshaft fillet clearance and are made without flash plating for better seating. Bearings with .001" extra clearance are available for standard size shafts and carry the suffix "HX" (X = extra clearance). Rod bearings are available with or without dowel holes (HD = with, H = without), main bearings are available with standard 180 degree upper half grooving and with full 360 degrees grooving (H = 180 degrees, HG = 360 degrees). where engines run in the medium to high RPM range . H-Series bearings should be used if contact patterns obtained with P-series parts are too narrow. Contact pattern should ideally cover 2/3 to 3/4 of the bearing surface."
"where engines run in the medium to high RPM range" Hmm, that sounds like an enthusiasticly driven Duratec to me!Unfortunately, Clevite is not presently making an "H" series for the Duratec but may in time. However there are plenty of other bearing sources and studying the spec sheets can often turn up just what you need from another application.
For more info : Click here: How To Select Clevite 77® High Performance Engine Bearings, Motorhead Heaven
Quote:
You still don't have any clue as to what specs you want to build the engine too (turbo, S/C, N/A, etc) but think you should start anyway.
Read the entire thread. You'll note that I am swapping engines so I can get the car back on the road. This will allow me the time to thoroughly consider my options as to how I will rebuild the original engine, and do so as time and finances allow me to at my leisure .(Of course that will have to be AFTER I rebuild the 283 from my father in law's 67 Malibu!I only have one engine stand!) A couple of nice commission checks from my job as an industrial equipment sales rep will allow me considerable options on how I wish to proceed. These are the funds I use to work on my "pipe dreams", not the money I budget for day to day living expenses and bills.
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You are basically pipe dreaming out loud here
One should be careful what one labels a "pipe dream". Orville and Wilber where pipe dreamers, as was the idea of going to the moon. Many former pipe dreams are now common place. When Porsche was first starting to campaign racecars, they where basically told they where pipe dreaming. Rear engines and swing arm rear suspensions where unsuitable for racecars because of center of gravity shifts and changing suspension geometry made the cars unstable. They where told that "All the money in the world won't make a race horse out of a pig" The reply attributed to Ferdinand Porsche was: "No, but I can make a very fast pig!" Porsche's racing record now speaks for itself. Many so called automotive "experts" where embarrassed at the track by the likes of pipe dreamers Smokey Yunick and Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins, two pipe dreamers who bucked conventional wisdom and did it their way. If you are not familiar with them, do a little research. They make for fascinating and humorous reading. Consider that before the bell housing changes in 99, A 3L tour was a pipe dream! Wan't a good pipe dream? How about a 3L ALL WHEEL DRIVE Contique done by swapping the drivetrain fram a Jaguar X Type. Pipe dream, sure. Wanna' bet someone won't do it one day?
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and doing it without much if any understanding of what you want to build or will have to build to meet your demands. Then on top of that the little bits of information you may have gained already seem to be flawed or more likely just hits of worst case scenario spouted as 100% fact.
I think I have proven that I have a far greater understanding of what is required to meet whatever goals I set than you originally suspected! Plain fact is I know far more on the engineering and operation of internal combustion engines and automotive systems than you would imagine. Had you taken the time to research any of my previous posts instead of extrapolating too much from this one, you may have realized it. While you're at it search the old mailing list archives. You'll find technical posts of mine from well before you became a CEG member, "hardcore" or not. Since the search engine is down, I'll grant that perhaps you where not able to check, so here is a link to one on the subject of the operation of catalytic converters. Perhaps you'll see that my technical knowledge as well as my ability to do research and learn is far greater than you surmised. (The thread also proves that I am only human and can get a little testy myself sometimes, so hopefully no offense given and no offense taken here! ) web page
As far as little bits of flawed information and worst case scenarios go, Can you point out any?
Fact: Porting and polishing is a well known power adding process.
Fact: Modifying stock components to cost effectively accept design changes is a process thatâ??s been around since the birth of hot rodding.
Fact: The Duratec engines have weak rod bearings. This can be verified empiricaly by checking the number of posts of how many members have had failures. Additionally, research the TSB's/Recall notices. You'll see that one of the first ones is for rod bearing failures .
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My advice to you is to do A LOT of saving, A LOT of studying, A LOT of learning, and not do it out loud in this particular way.
I WILL agree with you on the "savings" part, it's always a good idea, however on the rest you are obviously way off. I ALLWAYS research, I am ALLWAYS willing to learn! As for "not out loud in this particular way" , this forum is Duratec Maintenance , which is the subject I started this thread on! Had I wished to get into an entire technical discourse , I would have posted to Duratec Performance !
My advice to you is to heed your own advice as well as never assume.
As the old saying goes, when you ASSUME You make an A$S of both U and ME !
For myself, my time here on the CEG is to learn what I DON'T DON'T know, help others with what I DO know and to hopefully not jump down anothers throat.
Now lets shake hands and be friends!!! 
BTW: I checked out your site. Sweet SVT you got there!
Last edited by Stevedrivr; 01/05/04 11:27 PM.
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115
CEG\'er
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OP
CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115 |
Quote:
not to mention, what about the oil pump
Oil pressure was good at time of failure. When I tear down the engine, of course I'll check the oil pump!
In fact Clevite just released a pump for the Duratec in June of this year so with 130K on the engine I would replace it as a matter of course.
Quote:
where is all the metal from the bearings?....
There was no discernable metal in the oil, but since it only ran for about 30 seconds at idle with the failed bearing, there wouldnt be. Oil analysis is good for spotting a problem but not so great for determining the root cause, which could be a dozen different things. Again, I'll find out when I tear it down. For some good info, see:
Clevite bearing failure analysis
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clevite bearings
See my reply to DemonSVT. The Clevite77 P suffix bearings for the Duratec are a STOCK replacement, nothing special.
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no i didnt bother to change the physics of my engine to ...
Any time you extract more performance from an engine you are altering the physics of it. All pun intended, but thats just the "physics" of the matter!
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 834
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 834 |
wow you people are real asses sometimes. Why couldn't you read and see he was doing a engine swap ? While he had the old engine out, he was planing on rebuilding it. Hey Steve, good way to shut them up and show them that you did do ur research and that ur not talking out ur ass. Sometimes i wondering about some idioits here on ceg  Thats a good way to offer advice by jumpijng down someones throat. READ !!!!! JESUS
HaHa You Watching me? Keep Watching
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