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Joined: Sep 2003
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 115 |
Well, the "Road Rat" is giving me electrical nightmares again! Started right after upper radiator hose burst on the way home the other day. Of course it soaked everything under the hood! (NOTE: I didn't let it even come near overheating, so we can pretty much rule out head gaskets for this thread!) After putting new hose on and refill with AF, car wouldnt start so I figure my problem is something is wet in my shot to hell electrical system. (I've got to try and get Ford to do the wiring recall even though its past the milage/ time limits!) Took all the electrical connectors apart, cleaned and dried them, left them open and put a big fan over the engine for 3 hours to dry everything out. Put connectors/ wiring back together (correctly!) and it fired up on second try, but running rough, like one cylinder is not firing. Let idle for 5 minutes, then used a clamp to hold throttle arm at about 2500 rom to get hot and dry things out. Ran for about another 5 minutes then died! Would not restart. Ran an engine off test and got:
118: "ECT densor is/was high." (Ok, after running 10 minutes, ECT probably heat soaked when it stalled.I can understand that code coming up.)
211: (memory code) "Ignition PIP signal was erratic or missing." 
(Anyone know what a "PIP" is? Can't find any mention in the Haynes manual!!)
522: "(engine On) Park/Neutral Position (PNP) or Clutch Pedal Position (CPP) circuit fault. Transmission MLP sensor out of range in park "
(Thats only supposed to come up during the engine ON test, so I have NO FRIGGIN' IDEA where that's coming from!) 
542 (O,M) "Fuel pump open, bad ground or always on - - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits"
543 (O) "Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits"
"(M) (Service 556 code first if present) Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits"
I've been getting 542 and 543 for several weeks! If the fuel pump is crappy, how could I have driven 100 miles a day?!! How could it have run for 10 minutes after I got the beast started agin after drying everything out! I swapped the fule pump relay anyway, but no change. I pulled the back seat and can hear the pump working. My multmeter gives 12 plus volts when I turn on the ignition, which drops to about 10.5 volts after a few seconds. (Thats kinda' weird, unless the voltage cuts back after the fuel pressure comes up.)
Im thinking the problem may be that 211 PIP code. Anyone know what the heck it is or have any other clues?
God, Gimme a carburetor and a good ol' distributor any day! I'll deal with the gas milage!
 code 211, anyone know what a PIP is?
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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First thing, when an engine is sprayed with coolant you must rinse it off with water or there will be a residue. This is most important down in the plug holes, and the plug wires will arc if not washed off. If coolant has dried you may need some soap before rinsing.
118 (O,M) ECT sensor is/was high or open - ECT
The ECT reads high when cold. This code means it is out of normal range. They are sealed so if the wiring is OK just replace it. You are probably flooding since the ECU thinks the engine is very cold. You can also check the output on the center pin with a meter.
211 (M) Ignition PIP signal was erratic or missing - Ignition Systems
The PIP is a signal from the EDIS module to the ECU used to sync ignition timing. If this signal is missing ignition timing will revert to a base timing of 10 degrees BTDC. The EDIS module will continue to fire the coils so this is not killing the engine. It's possible that weak or erratic signals from the crank and cam sensors are causing this, or it may be other wiring or a connector that leads to the ECU.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -George Santayana
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Quote:
First thing, when an engine is sprayed with coolant you must rinse it off with water or there will be a residue. This is most important down in the plug holes, and the plug wires will arc if not washed off. If coolant has dried you may need some soap before rinsing.
Rinsed the engine off the next morning. (This had happened during the night. After walking several miles to parts store and cobbling a patch section in to hose to get home I was beat!) Everything was still pretty wet with coolant and rinsed off easily, then sprayed some Zep orange cleaner on and used a sponge to get everything as clean as possible, then rinsed again. I'm thinking that the hosing off might have made things worse than otherwise, especialy given the state of my wiring! Today I pulled all the plug wires, blew out plug holes w/ compressed air and removed plugs. Plugs showed normal wear for 20k miles, nice tan/grey color, no deposits. Cleaned threads, taper seat and gave a fresh coat of nuclear grade antiseize B4 installing with torque wrench. Used dielectric (tune up) grease on boots. Also pulled coil pack leads, blew out w/ air and gave a little spritz of Caig DeOxit D5 into sockets and blew again with compressed air. Spread the terminals out a little for good connection, dielectric greased the terminal boots and reinstalled. Cleaned all the coil pack connections while I was at it, including the resistor and ground strap.
Quote:
The ECT reads high when cold. This code means it is out of normal range. They are sealed so if the wiring is OK just replace it. You are probably flooding since the ECU thinks the engine is very cold. You can also check the output on the center pin with a meter.
Replaced ECT about a month ago during my cooling fan debacle. Output from the PCM (ECU) to the ECT was about 4.7 VDC as I recall. I don't think flooding is problem, I'm leaning more towards lack of fuel!
1.I pulled the plugs after a "no start" go around and they were dry.
2. If I cycle the ignition on/off about 5 times and then try to start, car will run (poorly)for a minute B4 dying. The "5 Time" procedure is used to reprime/pressurize fuel system after fuel system work like replacing fuel pump.
3. If I remove air intake tube at throttle body and spray starting fluid in, engine runs for a few seconds, so I'm getting spark.
I'm thinking there may be something to those 542 and 543 codes after all. Tomorow I'm going to Pep Boys and see if I can borrow/rent a fuel pressure gauge, hook to the fuel rail and run a pressure/ pump/ regulator test. If nescessary, I'll make a jumper assembly, bypass the pump wiring and run the fuel pump continuosly, as if it where in "limp home mode". That should verify if its the pump itself or the wiring/ control system to it. (Unless of course the fuel filter or sock is clogged!)
Quote:
The PIP is a signal from the EDIS module to the ECU used to sync ignition timing. If this signal is missing ignition timing will revert to a base timing of 10 degrees BTDC. The EDIS module will continue to fire the coils so this is not killing the engine. It's possible that weak or erratic signals from the crank and cam sensors are causing this, or it may be other wiring or a connector that leads to the ECU.
OK, time for me to learn something else new! What is an "EDIS module"? Haven't run across that one B4 and it's not in Haynes manual or the CEG abbreviation FAQ. I guess I'll be testing the Crank sensor tomorrow too. (I wanted to that today, but it's such a PIA to get at! Guess I'll remove the wheel and the splah panel!
Any other thoughts? Anyone? 
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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EDIS stands for Electronic Distributorless Ignition System. It replaces the DIS system. I am not completely certain which system is in what car but I do know that starting in 96, Ford began incorporating this function into the ECU in some models. It's entirely possible that we have a modified DIS system because of our higher than average redline, but the systems are similar.
The EDIS uses engine speed and crank angles to calculate timing info. The PIP signal is sent to the ECU early so that the ECU can look up proper timing advance for engine conditions. The ECU sends the SAW signal back to the EDIS to trigger firing at the appropriate time. If no PIP or SAW signals are sent, the EDIS goes ahead and fires the coil at the latest possible time which is "base timing".
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -George Santayana
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Joined: Sep 2003
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Quote:
EDIS stands for Electronic Distributorless Ignition System. It replaces the DIS system. ... I do know that starting in 96, Ford began incorporating this function into the ECU in some models.
My 'Tour is a 95, mfg in late 94, so I'm not sure if "EDIS" is applicable, although there must be a similar system performing that function for engine control.
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The EDIS uses engine speed and crank angles to calculate timing info. The PIP signal is sent to the ECU...
I'm presuming that that the inputs to this system come from the TPS, Crank PS & Cam PS, so Ill check those out. I have a DMM for the crank & cam PS's. Gotta' see if I have an old analog multimeter for the TPS.
Any thought on the fuel delivery stuff I mentioned B4?
BTW, thanks for all your help!! I've been a hobbyist/"dealing with" cars AND electronics/electrical for 35 + years so this stuff isn't "Greek" to me, but god, can they make it any tougher for the DIY'er!!
"Hobbyist": Doing it when you want to. = FUN 
"Dealing with": Doing it when you have to! = PIA!
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,408
Hard-core CEG'er
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Fuel pump power sensing for the ECU comes off of the fuel pump relay output but before the crash/shutoff switch. The relay is in the box behind the battery. It may pay off to pull the battery and this this box to check the condition of the wiring and connections. This area is known to corrode. Fuel pressure may be present regardless of this signal, check at Schraeder fitting.
MSD sells an ignition module for the Ford Contour called the DIS-4. This is an external module, so they may all be external DIS modules. The DIS and EDIS use crank position for timing both ignition and fuel injection events, but the DIS system is more dependant on the cam position sensor for establishing and maintaining correct cylinder sequence at all times.
The Park/Neutral Position (PNP) switch is on the top of the transmission under the intake ducting and coolant hoses and surely got drenched. It is hooked to the transmission gear select cable. If mutually exclusive positions are detected it will throw a code. This may start working again once it dries out.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -George Santayana
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CEG\'er
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Quote:
Fuel pump power sensing for the ECU comes off of the fuel pump relay output but before the crash/shutoff switch. The relay is in the box behind the battery. It may pay off to pull the battery and this this box to check the condition of the wiring and connections. This area is known to corrode. Fuel pressure may be present regardless of this signal, check at Schraeder fitting.
Checked the relay and its ok. The wiring under the auxilary fuse relay box is pretty bad, but I've isolated and
re-insulated the majority of the bad wiring. Like I mentioned, I have to get the wiring harness recall done. I am on my way to Pep Boys now to buy a fuel injection fuel pressure gauge as soon as I finsh this thread. (No one around here seams to have one to rent/loan.)  Then I'll put the pump and pressure regulator through the tests.
Quote:
MSD sells an ignition module for the Ford Contour called the DIS-4. This is an external module, so they may all be external DIS modules. The DIS and EDIS use crank position for timing both ignition and fuel injection events, but the DIS system is more dependant on the cam position sensor for establishing and maintaining correct cylinder sequence at all times.
If it is what/where I think it is, is it about a 4.5"x3"x.75" rectangle with a a 12 pin connector? Sits on passenger side firewall to right of pwr steering reservoir? Any way to test the bugger? (Probably not but figured I'd ask.)I'll have to check out the MSD website and see what I can learn there. I checked the cam and crank position sensors and both ohmed out within spec. Checked the TPS and it SEEMS ok, but I only have a digital multimeter and I know I should use an analog one for that test.
Quote:
The Park/Neutral Position (PNP) switch ...
MTX. See my sig.
Thanks again.
Former, now returned CEG'er!
95SE MTX, (AKA "The Road Rat"). Stock except for:TH fix, B.A.T. big brake kit, tranny cocktail and lots of re-insulated wiring! May yet be a 3.0!
"Speed doesn't kill, stupidity does!"
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,408
Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Stevedrivr:
If it is what/where I think it is, is it about a 4.5"x3"x.75" rectangle with a a 12 pin connector? Sits on passenger side firewall to right of pwr steering reservoir? Any way to test the bugger? (Probably not but figured I'd ask.)I'll have to check out the MSD website and see what I can learn there. I checked the cam and crank position sensors and both ohmed out within spec. Checked the TPS and it SEEMS ok, but I only have a digital multimeter and I know I should use an analog one for that test.
DIS-4
That's it, but you would need a scope to judge operation.
For what it's worth, they rarely go out unless the coil wiring is shorted.
Originally posted by Stevedrivr:
MTX. See my sig.
Doh!
Not sure if the neutral switch is on tranny or shifter.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" -George Santayana
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 403
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Yes, I do. PIP stand for Profile Ignition Pickup. You get one per 360 degrees rotation. Picked up by the CPS I believe (crank position sensor).
96 Sport 2.0L - 190,XXX miles
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CEG'er
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I have a 95 Contour 2.5L. If you need to get the wire harness recall/replacmeent performed...do this now....
These codes could quite easily be caused by the defective wire harness. I had similar problems...when I purchased my car for a bargain...had engine problems. I removed the upper and lower intakes, fuel injectors, etc. and cleaned all. When the intakes were removed the harness to the fuel injectors and had no insulation, they were completly bare! Also I noticed that as I worked on the engine and wires that I touched the insulation would flake off.
Again, I would have your car towed, etc. to the dealer to have this work done and then see what codes are evident...I believe this will save you a great deal of hair pulling!
An ounce of prevention provides a pound of cure!
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