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Joined: Sep 2000
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Originally posted by kinger:
1. I get sick of people ragging on the SC system. It does exactly what its supposed to do...a 100 shot of nitrous oxide all on tap all the time!
2. Saying your going to a 3L now because of the lack of low end torque of a SC 2.5L is just plain wrong. There is no comparison there! Why would you rather trade 30-40 hp for a little more low end versus over 100hp up top? (where it matters by the way)
3. You remember your driving a V6 right? If you want all the power to show up under 4000rpm...save your money and buy a damn V8! Its a shame you have a car that has so much enginering into the dual intake system and you never even activate the IMRC!
1. Get used to it. The kit is a very poorly engineered mess. Yes it does act exactly like a centrifugal S/C should. Yes the mess can be patched for a substantial amount of money (injectors, I/C, shaft bearing, etc)
2. Ever consider the price difference? $1000-1500 vs $3500
The 3L has 3 times the bang for the buck the S/C does. Hell throw in the upgraded shaft bearing and an intercooler and the S/C is now more expensive then the turbo kit. Talk about a no brainer skipping the S/C...
Not only that but the greater power under the curve would make the 3L a much faster car in road racing (auto-x) and slightly faster racing from a dead stop. Yes up until a point. IMO about a 1/4 mile actually since a S/C car runs only low 14's but at 98-101mph. Meaning the quicker out of the hole 3L would be there but the S/C car would be pulling.
3. Sensationalism at it's finest. No comment. 
Had to add this since it covers both posts...
Originally posted by BStoneMega:
I agree dude. After 1st gear the Vortech screams all the way to 7600 rpm. So learn to down shift and the power is there.
Great way to drastically shorten your engine life.
This is exactly why I stated a 3L and turbo are "not required" to rev the piss out of the engine to make power. The stock components are actually very strong, but rpm is the one factor that will destroy any of them. Being able to keep the rpm limit down to a more sane level and still generate the power and performance you need is an infinitely better way to go about power production. For the S/C kit you would have to drop several pulley sizes to bring boost levels up fast enough to not need to greatly surpass 7000 rpm just to make any appreciable power. This is turn causes the S/C and shaft to spin at an exponentially greater speed which will in turn drive down reliability and longevity. Yet again more drawbacks...
So my statements are not based on heresay, unfounded opinions, or baseless personal accusations. Just good hard data and logical thinking.
BTW if you want to compare mods price for price...
Think about this...
Base S/C kit with no frills & all the flaws ($3200-3500)
or
Full 3L Engine - well built
Ported heads
Upgraded Oil Pan Baffle, screen, pan
Et cetera
Transmission
Torsen LSD and etc
Spec Clutch
Spec Flywheel
All upgraded shifter forks and tower
Plus the Suspension (struts & springs) of your choice
That's around $3200-3500...
Now compare those two projects against one another and get back to me okay... 
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Full 3L Engine - well built
Ported heads
Upgraded Oil Pan Baffle, screen, pan
Et cetera
Transmission
Torsen LSD and etc
Spec Clutch
Spec Flywheel
All upgraded shifter forks and tower
Plus the Suspension (struts & springs) of your choice
That's around $3200-3500...
Now compare those two projects against one another and get back to me okay...
i whished thats all i spent on the 3L !!
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
MTX75 w/ Homebrew Zetec FD and Torsen Complete
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Posts: 17
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C'mon guys how much did you really spend on yput 3L swaps? Only 1000 dollars,... lets be real! It's no surprise that F/I, whether it be turbo or s/c costs lotsa dinero, especially when you factor in needed engine, tranny, exhaust, braking upgrades, tunning, etc needed to get things running optimally. Personally I love my cougar but I also realized that when starting this project that no amount of money was ever going to make it a super street machine, as it would only be just quick car. And after $6,000 plus dollars it is still just quick not as fast as a darn neon cheap srt-4 or wrx for goodness sakes. It's all matter of preference and availability on which set up you prefer. I insist that if you spent any time behind the wheel of s/c'd contour or cougar you'll be amazed at what a different vehicle it is with F/I. If some of you fellas think that jsut because your cars make more torque down that your car is inherently faster I say c'mon let's go for a race. I guarantee that I'll catch you but you won't catch me! But seroiously though, we all take pride in our time, effort, energy, and dollars put into our cars. lets remember that to respect and appreciate individuality. Cuz what works for me may not be what works for you. But together with our 3L's s/c's, and turbo's in hand we can all take down the honda, toyota, mazada, subaru, mitsubishi, hyundai's rollin around thinking that they can hang with american muscle!
Courtney
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Originally posted by caholland:
C'mon guys how much did you really spend on yput 3L swaps? Only 1000 dollars,... lets be real!
You truly have no idea do you. 
It's been done as cheap as ~$700.
I priced a solid 3L build (full swap) at around $1200-1500. That's basing the price off a $750-900 01+ 3L.
As you can see by my project vs project cost you can get a hell of a lot more overall performance for your $3200 then buying a S/C. That's also not even considering it's weak areas or the price to fix them.
Yes a S/C SVT is Really fun and fast to drive on the highway, but that's really it comparatively. Also it only really excels when you are already exceeding the speed limit. Fun yes, but not very smart nor very safe.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by caholland:
C'mon guys how much did you really spend on yput 3L swaps? Only 1000 dollars,... lets be real! It's no surprise that F/I, whether it be turbo or s/c costs lotsa dinero, especially when you factor in needed engine, tranny, exhaust, braking upgrades, tunning, etc needed to get things running optimally. Personally I love my cougar but I also realized that when starting this project that no amount of money was ever going to make it a super street machine, as it would only be just quick car. And after $6,000 plus dollars it is still just quick not as fast as a darn neon cheap srt-4 or wrx for goodness sakes. It's all matter of preference and availability on which set up you prefer. I insist that if you spent any time behind the wheel of s/c'd contour or cougar you'll be amazed at what a different vehicle it is with F/I. If some of you fellas think that jsut because your cars make more torque down that your car is inherently faster I say c'mon let's go for a race. I guarantee that I'll catch you but you won't catch me! But seroiously though, we all take pride in our time, effort, energy, and dollars put into our cars. lets remember that to respect and appreciate individuality. Cuz what works for me may not be what works for you. But together with our 3L's s/c's, and turbo's in hand we can all take down the honda, toyota, mazada, subaru, mitsubishi, hyundai's rollin around thinking that they can hang with american muscle!
Courtney
$1750 For 196wHP right out of the box!! With low compression too!
$1000 for 3L engine
$250 for gaskets/bolts and misc. supplies
$400 for machine shop work to install 3L valves and valve job.
$0 Labor since I did it but it was in my off time.
Remember, I didn't get the best deal on the motor though it was a great low-mileage engine. Bnoon comes to mind as the cheapest 3L swap, that guy can take some cheese and turn a rat in a hamster wheel into a capable powerplant if you let him.
This utilized the stock SVT air intake with drop-in K&N, stock SVT exhaust with gutted cats (didn't help), stock SVT fuel injection and ignition systems.
You tell me how that can be beat? With only dropping the catback to see how much the stock exhaust restricted the motor, I made 215 HP on the same day with stock intake still in place, 217 with a large airfilter borrowed from Keyser for the final run of the day.
After $450 in exhaust work/parts and tuning I was running around in street trim with 207-210 wHP all day every day still netting 17/30 city highway mileage.
That is why all this talk of "bigger and better MAF's and fuel injectors for a 3L" is f'ing waste of time and money.
Put the sweat into making your intake system breath by head work and P&P significantly in some areas while having some restraint and common sense in others.
*****Edit************
I gotta add to the comment about respecting effort and individuality.
I do have great respect for it in other people because for one, I want that same respect for what I have done and brought to the table, and two, I see very few people who have done anything original.
Tell me how bolting on a supercharger kit is original when anyone with $3500+ has the same exact kit you do? Not to take anything from people like Kinger who did TONS of original stuff with his S/C , Knuconcepts, Bstone with his chip tuning, WorldTour, fast4dr and others being right with them. However, those people took a basic bolt on kit, had ideas and tried/succeeded and made it better. The 3L swaps and hybrids on the whole are a better demonstration of originality and effort because there is no one right way to do it, only proven facts and just major guidelines for people to follow as they choose their own route to make their motor. Not evey 3L turns out awesome, but in most cases they are a labor of love for the cars.
No bolt on S/C gives you that.
These are just my opinions and I'm sure there are others who would agree with me that have the experience to say "been there and done that". This isn't disrespect, its just the facts.
Last edited by warmonger; 10/09/03 12:31 AM.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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How did we get here? I was just in aggreance that the S/C is a little weak down low but it still fun to play with. I also agree that just a s/c kit may not be the most original idea but soo what who cares! This post was about the shortcomings of the s/c kit not who has had the most unique or original engine builds. Again I'm not saying anything is wrong with the 3L swap, nor have I claimed to be the foremost authority on it either. I've read many of your post and marvel your knowlegde about the duratech and how to get the most out of it. Thanks for the stimulating conversation.
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Posts: 976
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Originally posted by caholland:
How did we get here? I was just in aggreance that the S/C is a little weak down low but it still fun to play with. I also agree that just a s/c kit may not be the most original idea but soo what who cares! This post was about the shortcomings of the s/c kit not who has had the most unique or original engine builds. Again I'm not saying anything is wrong with the 3L swap, nor have I claimed to be the foremost authority on it either. I've read many of your post and marvel your knowlegde about the duratech and how to get the most out of it. Thanks for the stimulating conversation.
Thay are simply trying to rip on me, not you my friend. I enjoy stirring the pot everyonce once in a while to get the blood boiling  Pretty lame around here otherwise...
I offer PnP Heads for all durtec's details at PnPheads.com or jesse@pnpheads.com for details.
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Posts: 3,732
Hard-core CEG'er
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$650 for 99 3L full longblock, 25K miles
$300ish for +1mm pistons and rings
$200 for boring out the block
$225 for balancing
$1300ish for the heads (full PnP w/ 3L valves and combustion chamber option)
$lots of money for misc things (gaskets bolts etc)
$200 for cobra MAF ($75 is a core charge)
$500 for custom streetflight chip
$300 for S-AFC2
$600 something for MSDS headers
$400 trubendz exhaust (didnt buy yet)
$1400 for VCN-2000 and extra bottle (didnt buy yet)
thats just for starters, i bought SVT UIM, LIM, and cams
65mm TB
intake pipe
80mm MAF adapter
big huge filter
new tranny
high stall torque convertor
shiftkit
tranny cooler
tranny filter
sonnax valves
extra set of heads to avoid downtime (will sell extra set for same purpose if interested)
new alternator
i still dont think i listed everything
i should have no problem being the fastest ATX (demon this is one slushbox that will own you! )
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
MTX75 w/ Homebrew Zetec FD and Torsen Complete
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In all honesty i'm just glad that we are all here to argue what is the best way to go. We are the people that are taking a discontinued car and keeping it alive with our individuality. Keep the 3L's and the Turbos and the S/c'ers coming because no matter what we a the minority to the hondas and the nissans etc.... In the end everyone here wants to see even the smallest mod to the lowliest of tours.
2004 Evolution VIII cams-exhaust-tune
315whp 12.7@109
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Posts: 1,860
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I try not to say anything being that I am completely biased. I could not imagine driving the car I have without the power adder. I only drive around town on 5.5-6psi and it's enough for me as a daily driver.
I am personally going to stay with a 2.5. However I have heads being done by Kinger, 9:1 pistons being made by Diamond, bearings from Buckshot and soon to have an upgraded turbo.
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
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