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Originally posted by JaTo:
The difference is the yachts get moored at some pier somewhere and most people that I know don't vacation or move to Cape Cod for the "view" of the houses...
It's the ocean view and aestetic that they go for, as well as the New England "quaintness". Having an everlasting and STATIONARY man-made blenders beating the air just in sight would ruin it for a LOT of folks, not just the wealthy liberals...
I've done a fair amount of boating in that area as well as some fishing, and there are places 8-10 miles out that still don't sink below 50 ft.
I'd like to see the reasoning behind this "cost" issue of moving out past the horizon.
Like I said, I've been up there more than a few times and know the Cape rather well. I've found very few things that "ruin" the view around there (and I'm pretty fussy), but I'm afraid this would. Again, the boats get moored or move on to another location, and I've yet to see too many houses up there detract from the ocean views...
I'm all for calling hypocracy on a bunch of liberal enviro-wackos, but there's a valid concern here.
I'm sorry, I don't see what's so "quaint" about looking at the horizon with nothing but water and sky out there. Nothing worth bitching over.
The cost issue was the extra cable it would require to get out there. The longer underwater cables have to go, the more things can go wrong.
Take a cue from the Danish. They don't seem to mind them at all, and all Denmark has going for it is waterfront! I guess it's proof how we will never be progressive as the Europeans.
And you know damn well that moving them out farther wouldn't help. The [censored] with the boats would still be bitching.
Last edited by PackRat; 07/26/03 09:33 PM.
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Take your favorite vacation spot or the place you live in and put a pig farm next to it, or one of these wind farms in front of it. Make sense now? There are exceptions, though. They've placed wind generators at one end of Lake Arenal in Costa Rica, and it looks pretty damn cool against the background there, if you ask me. I can't find any of my personal pics of the wind farm right now, but there's a few shots of it here . Again, knowing the area around Cape Cod, it just doesn't fit in with the environment. It's an entirely emotional argument, I'll agree, but I can understand the aggrivation that something like this is causing. I really don't think it's a political issue (amazing, that statement coming from me). I think it's an issue where the residents simply don't want something like this marring the ocean skyline permanently. The cable issue has to be BS. We're talking about nothing more than MAYBE 100-150ft. deep at max, if there doing this at the deep spots in the Cape (I wouldn't imagine them trying to sink pylons much deeper, though I'm no marine engineer). I can't count the number of companies that have got copper of fiber optic lines running in thousands of feet of water that are pretty much maintenance-free. On average, the Cape just isn't that deep. More power to Denmark (no pun intended). They don't have 1/50th of the waterfront that the US does, so they were probably extremely limited in terms of placement. There has to be other places these can go and not cause as much of a ruckus. I for one would hate to return to the Cape and see these things there. They just don't fit in with the scenery.
JaTo
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Originally posted by BOFH:
Originally posted by gwellington:
It will frighten you, Tony, to know that I keep a copy of "Steal this Book" not five feet from my desk. Tho' old Abbie liked guns a bit too much for my taste. Nice quote from the Introduction: "Free speech is the right to shout "theater" in a crowded fire." Ah, the good old days....
I just find it ironic that he justifies his particular style of graft and theft by saying the corporations make too much money (I.E. they are stealing from the consumers.)
To me that means his is giving them a pass too by modeling the very behaviors he seems to abhor.
I have to say some of what is in there is very clever, but I don't agree with the premise.
For example, when he writes about "acquiring" gas, he instructs folks to look for a Caddy. The implication is because the guy is rich makes it ok to steal from him.
It just makes me shudder to think such people are probably in charge of tax policy in local, state and even federal governments now.
Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with folks who want to put together a cooperative commune and farm the land to make their bread (double entendre intended.) But to simply steal from "the man" because he has more doesn't square with my largely protestant influenced work ethic.
TB
Actually, Tony, I agree with you. Back in the 60's, though I was what you would call a radical (and I would call a moderate), I thought Abbie was way over the top, with his promotion of actions which, I felt, betrayed everything we were trying to do. I keep his book nearby as a reminder that while so many were angry at the time, even Abbie was hopeful for the future (well, perhaps, in his case, after emptying a few clips into "the Man," but still hopeful). As for today, I am saddened by the disappearance (some would say the silencing) of radicals, liberals, and even those with moderate views. Today, conservative Southern boys like Bill Clinton are branded liberals, and total wackos (I need name no names) are held up as the flower of moderation. Strange times, when we've lost, or marginalized, a whole spectrum of views about where our nation should be heading. Sorry for the long rant, it's late and it's getting dark in here (apologies to Steve Goodman).
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Pig farm != windmills Besides, I lived in Iowa, remember? The state is one big pig farm so bad example to begin with. Fiber optic lines aren't carrying electricity are they? Can't compare the two. Quote:
There has to be other places these can go and not cause as much of a ruckus.
People say the same thing about low income housing developments. People always want a solution to something but not where it inconveniences THEM. It's time for people to stop being so [censored] selfish.
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Originally posted by PackRat:
Pig farm != windmills
Besides, I lived in Iowa, remember? The state is one big pig farm so bad example to begin with.
Fiber optic lines aren't carrying electricity are they? Can't compare the two.
No, but copper lines do, and there's hundreds of thousands of miles more of it than fiber sunk under the oceans...
Originally posted by PackRat:
Quote:
There has to be other places these can go and not cause as much of a ruckus.
People say the same thing about low income housing developments. People always want a solution to something but not where it inconveniences THEM. It's time for people to stop being so [censored] selfish.
My bet is on the bluebloods, their lawyers, action groups and their money to shut this thing down faster than a raped ape running for a bucket of ointment.
Money and power talks, so given the amount that either lives on the Cape or vacations/visits there, this thing in it's current form doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting off the ground.
People have a vested interest in their surroundings and property values, so regardless of the moral, economical or environmental principle here, if it threatens those, one would certainly expect them to fight something like this. If this company can run cable 6 1/2 miles off shore, another mile or two shouldn't hurt too bad, especially since I can think of a number of other places where these would generate half the controversy and be out of sight.
This would be akin to moving a wind farm on the lip of the Grand Canyon, even though the Cape isn't a park or reserve, per se.
It's not a matter of inconvienence. It's a matter of aestetics and ruining the visuals of a beautiful area.
This is like trying to put a dump just outside Beverly Hills, Scarsdale, Nichols Hills, Canton, etc., etc. It may serve a purpose, but people don't pay money out the a$$ to live next to a trash pile or within plain sight of visual excrement.
There's a time and a place for everything. A wind farm in plain sight of Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard is like having a church next to a whorehouse; it may serve a valid purpose, but one party is going to be livid at the "scenery"...
JaTo
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Point is, the only reason the Cape crowd don't want the windfarm is their own selfish needs and there's no escaping that fact. The rich liberals of Massachusetts had a chance to show they actually care about the environment and they so BLEW IT.
GO DEMS!!!!!
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John Stossel is a horrible reporter, I can't count the number of times he has been busted for making things up, ignoring key parts of a story that don't fit what he wants. I use to like him, but even on reports by him that I agree with the main view, he lies and makes things up to make his point. Take a look at some reports on Fairness and Acccuracy in Reporting (www.fair.org) I was going to link a few but the search part is down today. I do alot of watching of media and how they report things as a pol scinces major, and media is a areas I will work with alot.
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Originally posted by gwellington:
Originally posted by BOFH:
Originally posted by gwellington:
It will frighten you, Tony, to know that I keep a copy of "Steal this Book" not five feet from my desk. Tho' old Abbie liked guns a bit too much for my taste. Nice quote from the Introduction: "Free speech is the right to shout "theater" in a crowded fire." Ah, the good old days....
I just find it ironic that he justifies his particular style of graft and theft by saying the corporations make too much money (I.E. they are stealing from the consumers.)
To me that means his is giving them a pass too by modeling the very behaviors he seems to abhor.
I have to say some of what is in there is very clever, but I don't agree with the premise.
For example, when he writes about "acquiring" gas, he instructs folks to look for a Caddy. The implication is because the guy is rich makes it ok to steal from him.
It just makes me shudder to think such people are probably in charge of tax policy in local, state and even federal governments now.
Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with folks who want to put together a cooperative commune and farm the land to make their bread (double entendre intended.) But to simply steal from "the man" because he has more doesn't square with my largely protestant influenced work ethic.
TB
Actually, Tony, I agree with you. Back in the 60's, though I was what you would call a radical (and I would call a moderate), I thought Abbie was way over the top, with his promotion of actions which, I felt, betrayed everything we were trying to do. I keep his book nearby as a reminder that while so many were angry at the time, even Abbie was hopeful for the future (well, perhaps, in his case, after emptying a few clips into "the Man," but still hopeful). As for today, I am saddened by the disappearance (some would say the silencing) of radicals, liberals, and even those with moderate views. Today, conservative Southern boys like Bill Clinton are branded liberals, and total wackos (I need name no names) are held up as the flower of moderation. Strange times, when we've lost, or marginalized, a whole spectrum of views about where our nation should be heading. Sorry for the long rant, it's late and it's getting dark in here (apologies to Steve Goodman).
*backs away slowly with hands up....*
*finds door, beings running*
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Originally posted by RedStar14:
John Stossel is a horrible reporter, I can't count the number of times he has been busted for making things up, ignoring key parts of a story that don't fit what he wants. I use to like him, but even on reports by him that I agree with the main view, he lies and makes things up to make his point. Take a look at some reports on Fairness and Acccuracy in Reporting (www.fair.org) I was going to link a few but the search part is down today. I do alot of watching of media and how they report things as a pol scinces major, and media is a areas I will work with alot.
They act like nobody is smart enough to figure out that Johns segment is an op-ed piece.
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