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Joined: Dec 2002
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Can my Degree in History be a basis ??
I honestly don't think you would believe whatever I showed anyway. Fact is fact and you can't change it. Belief and opinion are totally different things.
Why hate the French for being defeated in WWII.
Why hate them because they do not want a war.
To cut a long story short, there were a LOT of German immigrants in the US at that time. The National Socialist movement was very, very strongly supported EVERYWHERE. Hitler DID have a lot of support across the world up until his invasion of Poland. That was the last straw. Even then, some countrys wanted to wait a bit longer. The British have always been strongly allied with the Prussians. This feeling was still strong, and Hitler was happy to ally with the UK. Against this, we did join the war because it became apparent that Hitler was trying to Anschluss all of Europe.
The US didn't want to get involved at first. They went into total isolationism, this destroyed their economy.
Britain asked the US to join, begged them at points.
The US did not want to join the war. In their opinion Europe was too far away and the thought it would sort itself out.
Their thoughts on this was that whoever won, they would resume trading with. If it was the Germans, then so be it.
The US was also quite involved in the research being carried out in Germany too, and many great things were coming from it. Fighter jets for instance.
This is why Albert Einstein went to America, and not elsewhere. It was easier because of the American-German ties. THis is also why so many Jews went to America too, because of the relationship.
It was when Hitler stabbed the Russians in the back that the allies began to win the war. Caught on two fronts, and not holding well in Africa, the German army was too thinly spread.
Sometime during this, the UK begged for support from the US and received some bombers, fighters, and pilots. The US wished to keep out of it still.
Then came Pearl Harbour ... and the rest, as we know, is history.
The liberators of the French in WWII, however, were the Allied Froces, not JUST the US.
For a very serious point, a lot of what is taught in the US schools is limited to be not just 'politically correct', but also for patriotic reasons.
The US has a great feeling of pratriotism. This cannot be denied and it is a very good thing.
However what is happening, is that this is being USED against you.
Look at the contempt for the French, look seriously at what it is based on. By this I mean what has been said recently to provoke it. Check those things out against the facts. Then you decide.
"War is Peace"
"Ignorance is Strength"
"Freedom is Slavery"
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Originally posted by bkent:
Quote:
That's the old US cowardice for you, they didn't join the war until they knew who was winning. Lucky it was the allies.
We declared war after the Japanese bombed pearl harbor. 
We didn't go to Europe until after Japan attacked, true. You wanna know why?
The US population didn't want to. Didn't think we needed to get involved in "that war over there". Why put our forces in harm's way if we're not being threatened?
Sounds kinda like how the antiwar argument is being framed today. "Saddam can't reach us, he hasn't attacked us, we shouldn't put our troops on the line when it's the UN's job." Well, 9/11 was our first little love note from the Middle East. Should we wait for another before we act?
Maybe we should wait until Iraq CAN mount a direct attack on the US or the UK. That would be sporting, wouldn't it? 
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 149
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 149 |
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
Originally posted by Rabbit:
That's the old US cowardice for you, they didn't join the war until they knew who was winning. Lucky it was the allies.
If you were to actually read about the US history during and prior to WWII you would find out that they were considering joining Hitler.
Oh wait, you won't find that in books printed in the US !! That's too much of a "no, no" to print. Check out the European history.
If you are such the educated history buff you are pretending to be, then you should know that WWII was hardly being "won" by the allies prior to U.S. involvement. In fact, if you will actually open a book on the matter instead of spouting off nonsense, you will find that Britain was within mere months of German control.
First rule of debate is you can't B.S. your opinion as fact to people who actually know the material. 
That is true. There was only a limited amount of time that the UK could hold off the Germans. However the fighting on the Russian front, and the skirmishing in Africa was testing the Germans more than the British.
The supply of American bombers, fighters and pilots turned the tide of this a great deal.
With their help, and constant day and night bombing, the war was won. Prior to that it was hard enought to keep up the defences. The Russians were also highly effective in spreading out the German forces, and helping with victory in the harsh winter.
If Hitler had left the Russian front, and concentrated on the East, he would have walked into the UK without a problem.
Without the help of the US we would not have won, becuase we would not have had the air capacity to level their froces.
Then the US infantry came in when they were finally commited.
I believe, but can't remember, that the US were also providing naval escortation for the allies too, in Africa I think.
"War is Peace"
"Ignorance is Strength"
"Freedom is Slavery"
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Originally posted by Rabbit:
The US was also quite involved in the research being carried out in Germany too, and many great things were coming from it. Fighter jets for instance.
Umm...got a citation for that? The German jets were a huge surprise to Allied forces. Allied intelligence had a clue that something was coming, but they caught all the air force crews way off guard. The Americans and Brits were collaborating on engine design, and may have obtained some German plans by espionage, but I certainly don't think you can claim that they were working on fighters together.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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OP
I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by Rabbit:
The National Socialist movement was very, very strongly supported EVERYWHERE.
Really? Maybe by German immigrants. Not by heads of state. And NOT supported EVERYWHERE. Yea we are being brainwashed based on our patriotism. Wish I could snap out of it. Why has democracy worked and thrived where dictatorships are responsible for thousands of innocent deaths and extremely poor economies? I'm not saying that it is a perfect system but how can a country go wrong when it's run by the people for the most part.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
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Joined: Dec 2002
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CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 149 |
Quote:
We didn't go to Europe until after Japan attacked, true. You wanna know why?
The US population didn't want to. Didn't think we needed to get involved in "that war over there". Why put our forces in harm's way if we're not being threatened?
Sounds kinda like how the antiwar argument is being framed today. "Saddam can't reach us, he hasn't attacked us, we shouldn't put our troops on the line when it's the UN's job." Well, 9/11 was our first little love note from the Middle East. Should we wait for another before we act?
Maybe we should wait until Iraq CAN mount a direct attack on the US or the UK. That would be sporting, wouldn't it?
That's exactly right about WWII.
I agree in part about Iraq too. However, you must look at Saddam as a leader and his intentions. He wants to restore Iraq to what it was before Iraq was created by the British (can't remember the name of the place now). He wants his country to be what it should be.
He has little intentions of attacking the US because it serves no purpose other than to get himself attacked back.
He DOES have a bad way of controlling his country, killing, fear and terror everywhere. This should be addressed.
I am convinced he does have chemical agents, maybe bio-chemical too, and they should be destroyed.
There still is NOTHING to link him with Al-Qaeda, other than speculation.
What I do not agree with on this invasion of Iraq is the why and the blatant manipulation of the American population.
I think everybody knows it's about the oil for a major part, I think it's pretty obvious that some of it is 'settling a score' for the '91 Gulf War.
The government, and the media however, and turning this into a cause of justice when it is not.
There is no denying that by removing Saddam and replacing him with a better suited leader that this would be resolved.
However, it was the British and Americans who were instrumental in getting him there in the first place. This was because he was malleable and would do what he was told. He turned out to be a cunning little bugger though, and went bad.
This I fear happening again.
Thanks to the media too, there is a GREAT hatred of the French for no other reason than that they disagree with the US.
The whys and wherefores are not taken into account much, just that they don't want a war and so are 'gutless'.
This is going to irrepairably damage French-US relations for generations.
I'm going to finish this post now, as I'm off for lunch.
I am glad though that we have gone from just randomly insulting and venting anger at the French and Canadians and Americans to talking about facts more calmly.
Thanks,
Rabbit.
"War is Peace"
"Ignorance is Strength"
"Freedom is Slavery"
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Yes Hitler was fighitng a multi-front war. However, his primary objective (world domination aside) was always the British island. The overwhelming majority of resources went into developing a way to get massive numbers of troops across the channel using everything from specialized transports to crude, modified, fishing vessels.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Quote:
The US was also quite involved in the research being carried out in Germany too, and many great things were coming from it. Fighter jets for instance.
I thought fighter jets first appeared at the tail end of WWII? (1944-45)
Are you talking about pre-US involvment research?
Quote:
It was when Hitler stabbed the Russians in the back that the allies began to win the war. Caught on two fronts, and not holding well in Africa, the German army was too thinly spread.
So US involvment had no bearing on the situation, rather it was Germany's mistake. If the US never got involved, Germany would have fell due to a multi front war. You seem to downplay the importance of the United States involvment.
Casablanca = 35000 US troops from US under Geoge Patton
Oran = 39000 US troops from England under Lloyd Fredendall
Algiers = 33000 US and Brit under Ryder
Why was it again the axis was not holding well in Africa?
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"Hate to spare"?!?! What a joke
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What school is your degree in History from. Maybe you can return it for a better degree. (Maybe LIBERAL arts).
The Jews came here because of the relationship with us? We turned the jewish refugees away. WE didn't want them then. What are you talking about? Maybe your history can explain how and why Israel came to be formed?
True, we were isolationists. True, there were Germans here who supported Germany. But when push comes to shove, we shove back. We did not enter WW2 when we knew we were on the "winning side". We made it the winning side. Without the U.S., Europe would of been united, as a German Territory.
We nearly lost in the pacific, but our resolve enabled us to win. Fact is, Europe was losing (if fact, only England remained unoccupied). Fact is, we came in and then Germany lost. The allies? I give you England was part of the invasion of Normandy (and they are supporting us now, too). But France was occupied and had no standing army. Italy was not allied. Canada? well, they helped as much as they could. The USSR was the only other country fighting the Germans and they had the advantage of weather, not superior forces. Germany nearly took Moscow.
So I am comfortable without a history degree and blinded by my patriotism to say the US was the single largest reason we won WW2.
WE should act, not in Europe, or world interest, but in our own enlightened SELF-Interest. If what is best for us is to enforce 17 UN declarations, then we should kick Saddams butt..
- Blinded by PAtriotism and Proud of it.
Sure, we're Patriotic. but maybe we have something worth being patriotic about!
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