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Hard-core CEG\'er
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OP
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Quote:
Unless you plan to make the car breath and exhaust better (and I mean a lot better - the kind of head work you'll pay over 2 grand for), then you will never see any benefit from reving to 8k.
Ask Warmonger, who has done extensive desktop dynoing for your configuration. I am willing to bet that even with the simulation for the larger valves and hybrid compression ration, you're still running out of breath at or before 7k.
I eventually plan on having a P&P, headers, cat-back, CAI, 65mm TB, and a 73-75mm MAF. Would this be considered breatheable enough? I know I should probably go true duals, but that would have to wait at least a couple years.
Are headers worth it compared to a SHO-Shop offroad Y-pipe? Im sure the headers would get a few more ponies but I'm not sure if its worth the $400-500 extra.
Is MSDS the only company that makes affordable headers for contours? Anyone have custom headers? If so, how much were they?
Thanks for the info everyone!
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by 3litreman:
Just wanted to pass on a couple of thoughts. NOTE: these comments are not beyond peer review, so I look forward to hearing the CEG'er responses.
1) I run a 3.0 hybrid with 2.5 top end - no extra work other than a bit of a valve job. Have performed a number of runs on my personal 248D dyno with fuel air. Fuel air is always well within spec (which, of course, means too rich), and I see no need for you to spend money on bigger injectors. I just don't see you running out of fuel any time soon. For corroberating information, go to the SHOShop site and read what they say about injectors. I think they agree with my dyno findings.
2) If you look at the dyno graph for any 2.5 or 3.0 litre unit, the peak power arrives at about 6000 rpm. After this, both torque, and subsequently, power, drop rapidly. If you take your engine to 8000 rpm just to be at 8000 rpm, I and everyone else will walk away from you on the street and on the track. We'll have shifted at 6500 grand and dropped right back into our peak torque and hp range, while you and your's are running rapidly out of ponies.
Unless you plan to make the car breath and exhaust better (and I mean a lot better - the kind of head work you'll pay over 2 grand for), then you will never see any benefit from reving to 8k.
Ask Warmonger, who has done extensive desktop dynoing for your configuration. I am willing to bet that even with the simulation for the larger valves and hybrid compression ration, you're still running out of breath at or before 7k.
Sorry to sound like such a downer, but I'd rather see you put your money into mods that make you and your 'Tour the best they can be.
BTW - I do have my own problems with the 3.0, so please, don't take anything I'm saying as gospel. Get the boys to review it and comment.
Have a good one,
David
Don't have time to retype it as I just had 30 minutes of typing erased by a POS IE6 crash but... @$^#^%$@
Whoever you go this information from is a complete idiot!!!
Stock SVT makes it's peak power at 6600-6900rpm already!!! Peak TQ at 5200-5600rpm!!!
Raise the CR to ~11.2, ported heads, larger valves and a 3L will make peak power 7000rpm or higher!!!
Shifting at 6500 is assinine!!! Why waste your peak power and make lower average power under the curve.
Desktop dyno shows HP from 6500-8000rpm is flatline & TQ is flatline from 5000-6000rpm.
Don't know who your source is but they are clueless... 
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 97
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Posts: 97 |
stock injectors are a nono This was with 3L valves, 12ish CR and stock injectors. The HP peak would have been around 7k if that motor had enough fuel. Reving it to 8k would have been a must! Even for the stock svt's you can pickup pickup some nice gains with a higher redline. These motors love to spin!
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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OP
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Originally posted by Gran Master D:
stock injectors are a nono
This was with 3L valves, 12ish CR and stock injectors. The HP peak would have been around 7k if that motor had enough fuel. Reving it to 8k would have been a must! Even for the stock svt's you can pickup pickup some nice gains with a higher redline. These motors love to spin!
So it sounds like I'm going in the right direction!
BTW I downloaded the Dyno 2000 program. That is one neat simulator! I just wish I knew what I was doing on it  . Warmonger, if you want, you can send me those dyno files: numlock_03 at hotmail dot com
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Demon,
My Ford CD is saying 35mm and 30mm for intake and exhaust respectively. I remember speculating that 32mm exhaust valves would be nice.
warmonger
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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OK, I sent them. If anyone else wants them you send it to them now.  Tom RE: 8000 rpm. I don't forsee being able to benefit from 8000 rpm capability without really good exhaust components and extensive intake work considering the CFM required at those engine speeds. You aren't dealing with forged Ti rods here! Considering that the rods would be under a tremendous tensile load at 8000 versus 7000, they would be first on my list to change along with the valvetrain components. Refer to T. Haines about it or Procyon, they are Ford engineers.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12
New CEG\'er
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New CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12 |
G'day, Mate,
Sorry to come across as clueless. Usually I just come across as someone who can't spell. Perhaps have achieved a new azimuth. I have based my comments regarding peak hp on both graphs that I have generated myself on the DynoJet dyno for my 3.0SE, and on those provided by Vlad and the crew at SHOshop. Both the 98 2.5SVT and the 98 3.0SVT make peak power at precisely 6100 rpm. Please do not take my word for this - jump to the SHOshop site and have a look. With a shift at about 6500 to 6700 rpm, you would find yourself just shy of the peak hp when you clutched out into the next gear.
While I again admit that idiocy may abound among us all from time to time, it takes little skill to read the graphs from real cars on real dynos. Desktop dyno is a great tool, but when advising our friends on what works in the real world, I must base comments on data that comes from real testing of real cars.
It would be my pleasure to recant previous statements should someone show me the data from an existing car that has been modified to the degree that our friend is speaking of. However, to this point, I have seen none.
Have a good one,
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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The simulation shows that the engine would perform very well up to around 8K rpm IF the airflow requirements were met and there were no problems with mechanical parts. I really don't know how well the stock components will hold up to the added stresses, but I don't want to risk it myself. I think I would draw the line around 7200 rpm on stock internals. Vortech runs them up to 7600 or something like that and I have doubts about the long-term reliability, but Hey, they are working fine so far! So to tell you the truth I don't really know whats good.  warmonger
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 97
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
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Posts: 97 |
Stock internals are strong they can handle a 8k redline with no problem as long as the oil starvation issue is taken care of.
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hi,
I think that the shoshop still advises against using 3L valves and opts for stock 2.5L parts. The cost to do the valves is high and they probably would not yield high profit margins by selling this extra option on their engine deals, so they probably just advise against it to save wasting their own time. People have this idea that only the "best" will do and if they think they can't afford the "best" then many will not buy anything at all...they will give this up and try something else. Doing valve work like that at a profit would probably be $800 more on top of the already high prices that ShoShop has, and this would scare people off. If you convince someone that this method is the "best" way, AND it is affordable, then you will sell it guaranteed. Its all psychological.
In my opinion the restrictive exhaust valve is partly responsible for the poor breathing above 6500 rpm. I argue this over and over that the valves are too small, and the exhaust is the worst.
By the way. The comments about the SVT power curve continually increasing up to 7K rpm are correct. Best power will be made shifting at redline which is 7K rpm and most of the real world dyno's reflect this. The dyno simulator also shows this, but the real world dyno's end at the actual redline whereas the simulator shows the theoretical limit. Both are in good agreement.
warmonger
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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