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Isn't there a laminar flow problem with the larger MAF and Smaller TB??? Swirl/intake flow would be battered and become turbulent when forced into the smaller dimension of the TB. This may be wishful thinking, but subsonic flow is accelerated by smaller to larger openings ((eg. notice the supersonic afterburners of jets work with a compressed cone >....exst)). So a truly laminar intake, w/o ribbing in the tubes, would work best with a ramair setup and a laminar flow from a larger opening to a consistently smaller MAF, TB, and finally plenum. Hmmm.

-Whew

Overthinking Perhaps?

JT

What the hell did you just say? I had to read that like 4 times. I get what you are saying but I don't think such a filter exists.

Competely different principle.

Suck & Blow comes to mind as a simple reason why...

Plus laminar flow disturbances are by objects actually IN the path of flow. The stock center bar MAF is a perfect example. (Pro-M MAF's have side horned MAF filaments)

The setup of "largest" filter to "larger" MAF to "large" TB to upper intake manifold (2 part manifold with dual runners whose surface area is larger than the intake opening!) would naturally accelerate the incoming intake charge. Venturi principle.

So the thinking is off...

Also ram air (true ram air - not the psuedo crap labeled ram air today) causes low rpm stalling and would not produce a noticable boost in intake pressure until above highway speeds. You are much better off with a fresh air supply over a sealed ram air setup!

not saying these type of things don't matter... but for a street application aren't we just splitting hairs. anything making under 300fwhp isn't going to see any benifit from this.

Derk I'm not to sure if Kaiser Hospital was blown up in one of the 5-0 episodes, but if your brother was born in Kaiser Hospital, there has only been one, the one they crumbled to the ground. If that's the case we born almost exactly one year apart in the same Hospital, my birth date, 10/01/76. Amazing aint it.

Sorry guys for going off the subject a little, back to the subject!!!

Excuse me? You quoted my entire post.

So you are saying it's not worth upgrading any car that makes less than 300HP at the wheels?

Filter is a documented gain, MAF is a documented gain, TB is not without A/F tuning, etc...

But they aren't worth it?

Please explain yourself of this...

RIGHT! That is what I was trying to describe. The acceleration would be there, but right up to the TB, and then with polished intake mani you can take most advantage of this acceleration. Swirl and flow would be maximized theoretically. The MAF sensor HAS to be there. But the oversize (a la Granatelli Motorsports) is much better than OEM. But removing angles and corrugated rubber hosing via a ricer(KKM) tube is the key to improving breathing, as much as possible. Smoothing things out and straightening them out, and why not go for Venturi effect, and most HP will be seen IMO.

Quote:

Also ram air (true ram air - not the psuedo crap labeled ram air today) causes low rpm stalling and would not produce a noticable boost in intake pressure until above highway speeds. You are much better off with a fresh air supply over a sealed ram air setup!

Right, the theory is constantly debated especially amongst the Pontiac forums of this marketing BS system in the cars. Cold air is probably the best we can hope for unless you want to go crazy with a hole in the hood and a setup there. But there is a substantial improvement over stock with mine, I have a CAI Tube down behind the Fog, and a Duct from the "gills" in my fascia to the "velocity stack" of my cone. It is the best setup I have found. Also, there is much better RAMAIR effect with it, even if only at 50+ MPH.

.025

JOUT

I did post a LONG a.ss post that had some disagreement, but I deleted it. I think that there are several very technical points that were missed. I think that the MAF is being blamed unecessarily for restriction when it is above all the cylinder head valves that are the restriction. Turns and irregular surfaces play a small role, but I believe that the restriction is the valves. The 180 HP limit people are hitting is probably being realized because of the valve sizing which is no longer adequate to support the combined effect of all the mods people have.

warmonger

those of you who missed the deleted post can breath easier, those who saw it can take an aspirin.

1. Stock MAF is 70mm (with ~58mm actual area), stock rubber boot is ~70mm inlet - 67mm outlet & PLEATED, stock TB is 60mm. Nothing optimized with that.

2. My idea is a large mouth filter (no restriction) to a 75mm bullet MAF (that exits at 70mm) to the stock rubber boot (MINUS the pleats - remember 70mm to 67mm taper!) & a 65mm optimized & polished TB.
The dual honed SVT upper intake opening is ~66mm for reference. That's a gradual taper from one end to the other. Inner wall "smoothness" very close and very sheer.

3. The stock MAF bar does disrupt laminar flow. It would cause eddies of turbulence on each side thus disrupting flow characteristics and velocity. BTW I specifically stated "Laminar flow disturbance" not the entire definition of laminar flow... Also if you wanted to get technical; this "supposed laminar flow" butts directly into where the intake manifold diverts. There goes your perfect flow right there. (Why I said the venturi principle was more in effect when you take into account where the intake leads into)

I saw it... :p

Yes the small valves are not a help either!