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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 595
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 595 |
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by muntus:
By that rational, you should have someone really try to kill you while you're trying to kill them, otherwise you won't "know what to exspect(sic) in the real world when you pull the trigger."
Now you're being simplistic. It's a simulation exercise.
Originally posted by muntus:
Deep knee bends and calesthenics while you're buddies yell at you doesn't simulate the kind of stress you experience when you're life is on the line. All it does is measure your focus while distracted. There are better focus excercises that don't require running around a gun range and not using ear protection.
Not just a focus. All the running about also adds a physical element to the exercise.
Frankly, I don't know what value such an exercise would have, & don't care. I'm just questioning why you would completely discount the suggestion and offer no real reason why. You even suggested that there are better exercises for developing focus, but fail to offer any examples.
That simulation exercise simulates shooting a gun with an elevated heart rate, minor muscle fatigue, and people yelling at you, that's it. If this is the situation you are going to find yourself in, at the gym after a few sets and some cardio while people are yeling at you while you have to fend off an armed attacker, then yes its a good simulation. Although shooting while your muscles are fatigued might have its merit if you're trying to simulate the effects of adrenaline, not everyone's response to adrenaline mimics muscle fatigue. The suggestion for no hearing protection, especially coming from a firearms instructor, is just plain dumb. If you want to improve your chance at self-defense, here are my suggestions:
Get better at squeazing the trigger. When learning to shoot, almost everybody jerks the trigger as they shoot. This can make you miss 2 foot wide target at 15 feet. I try this excercise everytime I shoot with a revolver. Have a buddy randomly load 4 rounds into a six round revolver. Now shoot as you normaly would at your target and note how you jerk the gun when there is no round in the chamber.
Some outdoor ranges will have a "Hogan's Alley," an area of obstacles and sometimes buildings in which you shoot targets from a variety of positions. Call around and these ranges will tell you when they have meetings(usually clubs) so that you can go through the Hogan's Alley.
Get some "dummy rounds"(blanks) and practice reaching for your gun, drawing it, and pulling the trigger. You'll be able to hear the "click" and determine, if using a buddy with dummy rounds, if you did draw fast enough. You can practice in the car, at home, or in the office; anywhere you anticipate having to defend yourself or others. Only do this with dummy rounds(double and triple check for safety) and in places where people won't see you and have to call the cops.
Get some gas-powered airsoft guns, the good ones are decent replicas that weigh the same as the real ones, some eye protection(no ear protection needed on airsoft), and go at it with a buddy. Practice as you would with the dummy rounds. It hurts when you're hit, and this adds an interesting element, as you're trying to shoot something that is trying to shoot you. Airsoft can break the skin, so long sleeves and no bystanders are recommended.
Black 1998.5
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Ressurected 06/14/06
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118 |
Some good advice on the practicing for sure. One thing I would NEVER do is point my gun at anyone, loaded or not. The airsoft replica gun is how I would be practicing. I've always been taught by gun instructors that a gun should ALWAYS be treated like it is loaded, even if you are sure it is not. Theres too many accidents from people being sure that the gun was unloaded, or they were sure they were blanks in the gun. Airsoft is the way to practice. If need be, add some lead bars to the airsoft to get it to the same weight. But I would NEVER point a gun designed to shoot real bullets at another person I wasn't ready to kill.
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177 |
Originally posted by MxRacer:
Originally posted by MaddMike2:
Who started the name calling? If you can't stand the heat don't start the fire.
yeah, i just noticed that... lol. sorry... meant it to come out about the statement being idiotic, not you.
anyways, i think what Jato is saying is the best answer. doing it once and a while so you know what to expect is fine. doing it all the time will cause severe hearing loss.
It's cool, I did not mean for people not to use hearing protection all the time, just the once to get the feel for it. 
98 Tropic Green Contour 2.5 MTX
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177 |
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by MaddMike2:
Originally posted by SvtEdwardo420:
50.cal desert eagle, mine breathes fire, that will scare anything, i dont think this would fit for what you need , but they are really cool to have
I remember when SW could not give away the MD29 when it first came out. It was to big and to bulky and way to powerful even for the biggest shooter. Low and behold Clint Carries one in a movie and SW can not make enough. There was a reason that it did not sell in the first place. Figure it out.
So you're saying it would not be cool to have one?
[/quote
No they are fun to shoot, but try carring one and a couple of speed loaders every day. Those things are frigging heavy. You start walking lopsided after awhile LOL.
98 Tropic Green Contour 2.5 MTX
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 177 |
Originally posted by muntus:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by muntus:
By that rational, you should have someone really try to kill you while you're trying to kill them, otherwise you won't "know what to exspect(sic) in the real world when you pull the trigger."
Now you're being simplistic. It's a simulation exercise.
Originally posted by muntus:
Deep knee bends and calesthenics while you're buddies yell at you doesn't simulate the kind of stress you experience when you're life is on the line. All it does is measure your focus while distracted. There are better focus excercises that don't require running around a gun range and not using ear protection.
Not just a focus. All the running about also adds a physical element to the exercise.
Frankly, I don't know what value such an exercise would have, & don't care. I'm just questioning why you would completely discount the suggestion and offer no real reason why. You even suggested that there are better exercises for developing focus, but fail to offer any examples.
That simulation exercise simulates shooting a gun with an elevated heart rate, minor muscle fatigue, and people yelling at you, that's it. If this is the situation you are going to find yourself in, at the gym after a few sets and some cardio while people are yeling at you while you have to fend off an armed attacker, then yes its a good simulation. Although shooting while your muscles are fatigued might have its merit if you're trying to simulate the effects of adrenaline, not everyone's response to adrenaline mimics muscle fatigue. The suggestion for no hearing protection, especially coming from a firearms instructor, is just plain dumb. If you want to improve your chance at self-defense, here are my suggestions:
Get better at squeazing the trigger. When learning to shoot, almost everybody jerks the trigger as they shoot. This can make you miss 2 foot wide target at 15 feet. I try this excercise everytime I shoot with a revolver. Have a buddy randomly load 4 rounds into a six round revolver. Now shoot as you normaly would at your target and note how you jerk the gun when there is no round in the chamber.
Some outdoor ranges will have a "Hogan's Alley," an area of obstacles and sometimes buildings in which you shoot targets from a variety of positions. Call around and these ranges will tell you when they have meetings(usually clubs) so that you can go through the Hogan's Alley.
Get some "dummy rounds"(blanks) and practice reaching for your gun, drawing it, and pulling the trigger. You'll be able to hear the "click" and determine, if using a buddy with dummy rounds, if you did draw fast enough. You can practice in the car, at home, or in the office; anywhere you anticipate having to defend yourself or others. Only do this with dummy rounds(double and triple check for safety) and in places where people won't see you and have to call the cops.
Get some gas-powered airsoft guns, the good ones are decent replicas that weigh the same as the real ones, some eye protection(no ear protection needed on airsoft), and go at it with a buddy. Practice as you would with the dummy rounds. It hurts when you're hit, and this adds an interesting element, as you're trying to shoot something that is trying to shoot you. Airsoft can break the skin, so long sleeves and no bystanders are recommended.
Look, read my later posts on the hearing protection it's A ONE TIME THING, can I say that any clearer.
Ok by the numbers,1. The running gets you breathing at a rapid rate, .2. pushups work the arms,3. sit ups tighten up the upper body and all combined get the heart and breathing rate up plus make you sweat, just like in a life or death experience. Trust me on this if you don't think you will not have all of this happen to you in a high stress condition you have never been in one.4. the harasment is to test your focus. Can you hit the target in a hostile envirnment.
98 Tropic Green Contour 2.5 MTX
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 49
New CEG\'er
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New CEG\'er
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 49 |
TourDeForce
Quote:
That article had 125 rounds or so run through that gun. Next to nothing when it comes to handgun testing. I would want to see a real toture test of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds or so to demonstrate the machining & engineering quality of the weapon. I will rest my life on nothing less.
Apparently, you stopped short of reading the rest of the reviews and articles. The Bersa is in no means a every weekend 1000 round shooter. It can be considered an entry gun. A gun also for true enthusiates that enjoy the small finer things in life.It delivers what the makers intended on. A great uncumbersome light accurate handgun for personal use. I dont care who your are. You come across a gun pointing in your direction last thing on your mind will be , "uhm, by the way is that a 357 mag or .22? "
The gun's design carrie's soo many great amenities that it's hard to pinpoint one true favorable point. It has all the modern up to date features that you find in guns ranging three times as much.
Most of the articles are based upon finding the right accurate caliber for this make.Which entails lots of range shooting.( 1000 to 3000 rounds )All having excellant overviews. You show me a NEW marketing handgun that bloats a 5000 to 10,000 caliber test that is'nt already a personal bought handgun? Then we can talk logistics.
If your a shooter who prefers to top off your gun every weekend with rounds settling in the hundreds..then yea, i'd agree with you. Though most of us do not.
What is special about the lil Thunder are all of the safty features. That to me is important.
This gun is still being made.Other pistols have a loyal following and surplus of parts,thus bringing with them bias recommendations.Bersa has excellant customer service and a gaurantee.
As for your little mishap at the range. Are you sure you didn't accidently tab the external slide release???
2000 Merc LS
#25302
Ducati Monster 620 (red), 250 Honda VTR (white and blue),Kawaski Eliminator 600(red), mini chopper(a.k.a)Suzuki Savage LS 650 modified (black)
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789 |
I am a big fan of 1911s. They are a bit larger than some of the other options mentioned, but they are relatively thin and not a bad gun to carry. There is something to be said for the accuracy after the first shot, but if you aren't small, first shot accuracy shouldn't be appreciably worse than most 9mm/.40 caliber handguns.
I got the 1911 bug with my brother's vast selection of 1911s. He has a Sig, Kimber, an HK, , a CZ, a few custom guns. My favorite is the Kimber, but I honestly can't tell you specifically what was better but it seems like everything...The Sig and HK were both very competent and all three were signficantly better feeling than the custom guns and CZ.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,307 |
Originally posted by muntus:
Get some gas-powered airsoft guns, the good ones are decent replicas that weigh the same as the real ones, some eye protection(no ear protection needed on airsoft), and go at it with a buddy. Practice as you would with the dummy rounds. It hurts when you're hit, and this adds an interesting element, as you're trying to shoot something that is trying to shoot you. Airsoft can break the skin, so long sleeves and no bystanders are recommended.
Airsoft makes a decent training platform all around- gun safety, draw practice, etc.
Definitely make sure you are using eye protection, and use the recommended ammo for the gun you're using. NO paintballs.
I'm an airsofter, if you couldn't tell.  I'll be starting into the paperwork for my Class A this month, hopefully!
1998 SVT Contour Silver Frost for sale in Classifieds.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 52
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 52 |
Originally posted by JaTo:
we do have a security system. they cut the phone lines outside the office and shattered the camera's so the system was virtually useless. this is all being taken care of though. they stole almost $24,000 worth of equipment this time, so boss is going all-out on the system.
Ugh; good luck with the new system.
that alarm system sucks and i know i work for various alarm companies... what they need is a alarm system with 2 phone lines and a backup radio transmiter also they can install a wireless nac ... or siren whatever you want to call it.. as for the gun of choice i get a desert eagle .50
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Originally posted by texasmerc2000:
TourDeForce
Quote:
That article had 125 rounds or so run through that gun. Next to nothing when it comes to handgun testing. I would want to see a real toture test of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds or so to demonstrate the machining & engineering quality of the weapon. I will rest my life on nothing less.
Apparently, you stopped short of reading the rest of the reviews and articles. The Bersa is in no means a every weekend 1000 round shooter. It can be considered an entry gun. A gun also for true enthusiates that enjoy the small finer things in life.It delivers what the makers intended on. A great uncumbersome light accurate handgun for personal use. I dont care who your are. ...
The gun's design carrie's soo many great amenities that it's hard to pinpoint one true favorable point. It has all the modern up to date features that you find in guns ranging three times as much.
Most of the articles are based upon finding the right accurate caliber for this make.Which entails lots of range shooting.( 1000 to 3000 rounds )All having excellant overviews. You show me a NEW marketing handgun that bloats a 5000 to 10,000 caliber test that is'nt already a personal bought handgun? Then we can talk logistics.
If your a shooter who prefers to top off your gun every weekend with rounds settling in the hundreds..then yea, i'd agree with you. Though most of us do not.
What is special about the lil Thunder are all of the safty features. That to me is important.
This gun is still being made.Other pistols have a loyal following and surplus of parts,thus bringing with them bias recommendations.Bersa has excellant customer service and a gaurantee.
As for your little mishap at the range. Are you sure you didn't accidently tab the external slide release???
Firewall won't let me view anything geocities. Sorry.
Safety features? Great. Light, accurate, entry level cheap? Wonderful! Garantee? Great customer service? Rejoice!! - all Totally meaningless if the gun jams after a round or two and you end up dead. I questioned the Bersa brand because of my experience with them (yes more than one). They are an "off" brand by my standards. They got better guns? Fine. I got not problem with that. I just like some evidence to back that up, and as I said, I couldn't view the geocities links you gave.
Quote:
You come across a gun pointing in your direction last thing on your mind will be , "uhm, by the way is that a 357 mag or .22? "
WhereTF did that come from?? Were you even addressing me with that comment?
The range mishap... Well, I've had enough experience with guns since I was a teenager to know how to secure the slide release. Obviously, the slide release was the problem, and I triple checked it after the feakish thing went flying down range the first time. There was some sort of mechanical or machining flaw that prevented the retaining mechanism on the slide release from engaging properly.
There are long term reviews AND 5000 or 10,000 round tests of various handguns published in 'Guns & Ammo' all the time. The pertinent one I read when I purchased my S&W compared a Glock 17 9mm, a S&W 9mm (659, I think), and a SIG arms 9mm. They were all priced beyond my budget at the time, so I got the Bersa - which I later returned for my S&W.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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