|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975
Hard-core CEG'er
|
OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975 |
Rather than clutter the other thread, I thought I would start a new one with the reviews I have read on the Mother's Reflections and FX lines. The more I read reviews, the more SQLSVT's statements were found to be off base.
I'm not trying to flame SQLSVT, I would just like to see some answers to his statements since he continues to insist that Mother's Reflections and FX are as good as products like Pinnacle, Klasse, Poorboy's, Zaino, Menzerna, Optimum, Four Star, etc. (I have numbered the questions I would like to see answered.)
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
When I saw your various categories with the products listed, I could think of a product that Mothers offered that performed as well as the ones you listed.
1. How do you know that it performs as well as Klasse, Poorboy's, Zaino, Menzerna, Optimum, Four Star, etc.?
2. Have you tested Mother's against the prodcuts listed that were named by detailing enthusiasts as their favorites?
I have yet to read a single review that states that Reflections or FX is as good or performs as well as Zaino, Poorboy's, Menzerna, Klasse, etc. The only comparisons were similarities of ease of use and application - not results.
From reading, it appears the "new" Mother's line was created a couple years ago to compete with Meguiar's NXT. It failed and had to be redesigned and remarketed.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
I will agree with you in that Zaino is more durable
3. How do you know that Zaino is more durable?
4. Have you performed a Zaino vs Mother's durability test?
I've read several reviews stating it's durabilty is not the best - again, the line was created to compete with NXT, not the top of the line products.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
Do a search on Autopia.org for, "Mothers Reflections" or "Mothers" and you will find that many feel that products like FX give results that are comprable to Zaino but at a cheaper price.
Many is misleading. I saw a couple compare appearance to be similar. NOT comparable durability, NOT comparable slickness.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
Reflections wax and topcoat are definitely considered "botique killers"
5. Definitely? Again, how do you know this? Have you tested Mother's versus the boutique brands?
I saw one person make that statement and it was due to due the fact that it was OTC and costed less than some boutique brands. NOT because it was better.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
Zaino is more durable...but it should be slightly more durable considering that it costs over twice as much.
A completely misleading statement unless you have tested both to know how long each lasts. You may only need to apply Zaino twice a year and Mother's 6 times a year. So in essence you are using more Mother's and it costs you the same if not more. Don't take initial cost to mean it costs less - that's a very amateur statement.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
The FX spray wax performs as well as the Zaino QD.
6. Have you tested the FX spray vs. Zaino?
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
The Reflections Wax is easily the best OTC wax available...
7. Again, how do you know this? Have you tested Mother's vs. Meguair's Gold Class or #xx lines?
I've read comparison reviews and most prefer Meguiar's GC/#__. Some prefered the Mother's. The primary reason stated for preferring Mother's was it's ease of use, not the end result.
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
The Reflections Wax is easily the best OTC wax available, and it will give many botique brands a run for their money.
8. Easily? Again, how do you know this? Have you tested Mother's versus the multitude of OTC brands?
9. Have you tested Mother's vs. Meguiar's GC / #__ or 3M?
10. Have you tested Mother's against the boutique brands?
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
Mothers Powerpolish is easily just as good as Optimum Polish.
11. Easily? Again, how do you know this? Have you tested Mother's against Optimum?
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
Mothers Powerpolish....it's agressiveness can be manipulated by pad selection.
That's nothing new to most any polish.
Your statements make it appear that the line:
1. does something new and different.
It doesn't.
2. is something it is not - a serious comeptitor to the "boutique" brands.
It's not, otherwise you would think that at least one person amongst hundreds would have mentioned it once as a favorite.
3. is a "boutique killer" because of how it performs.
Wrong again. One person made that statement based on the fact that it's available in some stores (OTC) and costs less.
Originally posted by GTO Pete:
I have provided hard data from hundreds of detailers. I have real world professional experience. I have purchased, used and extensively tested many products. Again, I see nothing to support your claims!
12. What do you have to back your claims other than reviews you have read?
13. Do you have time in the detailing industry?
14. What products have you used?
15. What products have you conducted extensive long-term testing with?
Until you answer the many questions I have provided, I can only assume your statements are based merely off of reading, not real world testing as you did not address any of the above questions in the other thread!
Again, I respect your opinion, but please don't make blanket statements that are so misleading without real data or proof.
I think most people understand a poll vs. conjecture and can make educated decisions.
When people raved about NXT, I went and purchased it and tested it. Eh. Good all in one cleaner with minimal durability. I'll do the same with Mother's and test it. Based on the reviews I have read and the amount of testing I have conducted, I am fairly certain that it will not be as good as the "boutique" brands and it's durability comparable to NXT. I'll be sure to PM you to sell it to you for very cheap. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206 |
Originally posted by GTO Pete:
I'll do the same with Mother's and test it.
Good. That is all I wanted in the first place, nothing more nothing less. For people to give the new Mothers stuff a look. I thought I already made that clear in the other thread.
Perhaps I went about it the wrong way by coming off sounding cocky in my first post in your previous thread. But, I don't feel my statements are that far off base. Not to discredit you, but to be honest you have not used the Mothers products yourself so how do you know how they perform? I like them a lot and I will continue to use them. Which is all that really matters in the first place. It's not like you were hiring me to detail your car and I was going to use them on it. If you try them out and like them, then thats great! If not, then your not going to hurt my feelings.
Maybe like you said I should have just said something along the lines of, "Hey everybody check out the new Reflections & FX stuff from Mothers, I like it alot and I think it performs really well for it's price."
If you decide that you want to give any of the products a try send me a PM and I will help you out as best as I can. 
"Sound Quality Loud" SVT
1998.5 Silver CSVT
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
New CEG\'er
|
|
New CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 13 |
Hey, SQLSVT...
So long as you like what you like that's all that really matters.
If the kool-aid drinker likes buying overpriced stuff online, go ahead and let him do so... it's a free world.
Maybe I need glasses, but I'm with you in that I find a lot of comfort in knowing that a quality, affordable and easy-to-use product I like is as close as my local auto parts store.
-- Jim
1998 SVT Contour
Silver Frost
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975 |
Originally posted by JimD:
So long as you like what you like that's all that really matters.
And I've supported that. My issue is with anyone who makes unsupported, unsubstantiated, unfounded claims. No real-world testing, no hard-data, nothing to support claims. That's the point.
Am I saying Mother's FX and Reflections are "bad" products? Not at all. But to compare them to "high end" products without any long-term, real world testing and claim they are just as good is foolish.
The "overpriced stuff" as you put it has been independently tested to show to last longer than any OTC product, therefore it costs equal to or less than OTC products.
Statements saying product A is better than product B are inaccurate and ignorant. To say because it's OTC or purchased online it's better is ignorant. I have always been a proponent of using what suits each individual the best. Different colors, conditions, storage, climates, budgets, etc. all factor into what is "best" for any one person. Educate yourself before you make ignorant statements.
I like how your 7th post since 2004 is to come out of the woodwork to take a stab at someone - keep your childish, immature "kool-aid drinker" comments to yourself or take them to the local playground.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
New CEG\'er
|
|
New CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 13 |
Well, aren't you Mr. Pleasant.
I actually came looking for help on diagnosing a wheel bearing problem, but got distracted with a lenghty post about a product I have used... so that peaked my interest.
I've supported these forums monetarily since I got my Contour as they've been a great resource. I rarely feel the urge to post, however, as I usually find what I'm looking for without posting. And probably if you look at one of my last posts, I encouraged others to contribute to continue running this website. Maybe I'll even contribute again.
What's discouraging, however, is that someone so seemingly knowledgable and passionate as yourself has such an argumentative and closed-minded attitude that is almost suffocating.
Cut the guy a break and give your fingers a rest.
1998 SVT Contour
Silver Frost
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206 |
Pete, I realize that you love Zaino products, but in the SZ section in the Wax Competition thread why is there the need to bash Mothers products in a thread that is suppose to be about a wax comparison at SZ, and more importantly to spread lies about their products and to put words in their mouth. You said: Quote:
Yet Mother's new lines claim that their products start out beading, but result in pooling. "Don't worry, the wax is still working" is their claim. So how do you know the wax is still there? Pretty shady in my book.
I have never seen or heard any of these "claims" made by Mothers and I find it uncalled for and flat out wrong.
I have never used Zaino products and you have never used Mothers Reflections but here is a thread from Autogeekonline.net where I asked about Reflections and one of the members "cwcad" posted pictures and results from his comparison of Reflections and Zaino. Reflections and Zaino Comparison from "CWCAD"
I would appreciate it if in the future you didn't bash Mothers products that you have not used and especially to put words in their mouth and make lies about their product.
"Sound Quality Loud" SVT
1998.5 Silver CSVT
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 9,196
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 9,196 |
***ATTN SQLSVT*** If you coming to SZ, maybe you can bring your wax and Jim can bring the blue Fusion and we'll see how your choice holds up  Now as far as the other guy calling out Pete about "over priced, online products", well, come to SZ and represent. IMO the online products I buy aren't overpriced: Klasse AIO is about $20.00 or so a bottle vs. Mequiars NXT which goes for about $15.00, WOW!, $5.00 dollars or about a gallon and 2/3 of gas  Klasse SG is about the same price as AIO, compared to the Mothers stuff which is gotta be around the $12.00 to $16.00 range, again, not a huge savings. I can speak personally to the store bought items, I used to use them and had to order some Mequiars products online because it wasn't offered in stores. They worked pretty well, well, until I tried Klasse and then it was all over  The bottles fell over and bowed down to Klasse and said "we're not worthy, we're not worthy!" Hell, Griots Garage "Best of Show" will crush Mothers, I don't need to do a test on that one as I still like their products as well and no, its not expensive, about $20.00 a bottle for 16 oz. They (Griots) also offer a Paint Sealant and its under $20.00, again, online products  Now, I/we do have EXPENSIVE products, but those are for special people, like our customers who demand it or for us, we demand it too  To try and compare Mothers Reflection to Pinnacle "Souveran" would be like comparing a CSVT to an M3 (E36 or E46, whats the first one called, that too ) Ok guys, its your turn!
"THEE" Roger R
USMondeo@aol.com
2005 Crossfire Limited coupe'
-FOR SALE @buyout price & I'll...
-throw in my 93' Regal as winter car
*Dragon Run 06'...Oct 12-15th*
Puur-fection Auto Detailing
Complete packages from $140.00
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975 |
Originally posted by SQLSVT:
I have never seen or heard any of these "claims" made by Mothers and I find it uncalled for and flat out wrong.
I'm not wrong. That's directly from a Mother's rep. I spoke to. I've also read several reviews on various detailing forums on the web stating the same.
I'll take the independent testing of The Wax Test, Guru Reports, Corvette World, Corvette Fever, personally speaking to various reps of products than your unsupported, unfounded speculation.
Unlike yourself, I back my statements with research. Even after all this, back and forth, you still fail to answer any of my questions, with very little to back any of your claims other than from what I can see, a poorly conducted test.
I have not been provided the same courtesy by you that I have provided to CEG. I'm not going to do all the legwork and "prove" or justify my statements to someone who cannot answer simple questions and provide solid, real world proof to their claims. IMHO, what I have done for CEG and CEGers speaks for itself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 5,975 |
Originally posted by JimD:
I've supported these forums monetarily since I got my Contour as they've been a great resource. I rarely feel the urge to post, however, as I usually find what I'm looking for without posting. And probably if you look at one of my last posts, I encouraged others to contribute to continue running this website. Maybe I'll even contribute again.
Because you donate to the site, it gives you the right to start name calling?
Originally posted by JimD:
What's discouraging, however, is that someone so seemingly knowledgable and passionate as yourself has such an argumentative and closed-minded attitude that is almost suffocating.
Cut the guy a break and give your fingers a rest.
Close minded? Please, that would be yourself making ingorant statements and digging up old threads and taking stabs at people. I've made detailing recommendations to many people on this forum to best suit their needs - regardless of the brand or cost. That's close-minded? Even though Zaino is one of my favorites, I have only recommended Zaino to two people. I've spent hours reading reviews, researching and even talking to reps. I've tested and tried many, many products. I give honest opinions of what I've personally tested, what I've researched and reviewed. I do my homework before I make statements. That's close minded?
This is a loooong continuation of of a previous thread. He continues to make claims, I continue to ask for ANY support to these claims and he continues to avoid the questions, and provide no solid, real world proof. I do not like people who make such claims and misinform CEG.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 206 |
Originally posted by GTO Pete:
from what I can see, a poorly conducted test.
From what you can see how is what "ccwad" did considered a poorly conducted test? He applied two products on his DD truck, took pictures and reported on his feelings of the two products. Isn't that the exact same thing that you do when your comparing products? Is it simply because he is not "Waxguru" or "CorvetteWorld"? Or is it a "poorly conducted test" because you wish the results would have came out differently? I am not saying that what ccwad did is the "end all, be all" test of two products, but I don't appreciate how you keep slamming products that I use and say that they are garbage when you have never even used them.
I am not saying that Reflections owns all when it comes to durability, but it is definitely no slouch. It seems that when judging a product you place an extremely heavy emphasis stricly on durability. And while I agree that durability is very important, there are other factors to consider such as ease of use, appearance, and value. I have found that for my needs, Reflections appearance wise is killer! Is EXTREMELY easy to use and is durable enough to suit me just fine for how much time and effort I want to put into detailing my car.
I have been finding myself trying out more and more online products during the past year, and I find that they are great! But there is also a need for a quality OTC product that appearance wise looks great!, is easy to use, is affordable, and that someone can easily get at their local auto parts store.
"Sound Quality Loud" SVT
1998.5 Silver CSVT
|
|
|
|
|
