Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
B
Hard-core CEG'er
Offline
Hard-core CEG'er
B
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Originally posted by �¡ Se�±iorSiesta !:
The entry also states "both Aston Martin and Cosworth are owned by Ford" which isn't true. Why would Cosworth produce engines for Chevrolet Indy cars?



Because, like any business, Cosworth need to make money. GM ditched it's in-house IRL engine in the middle of last season for Cosworth's then still-born IRL unit. GM teams have been running this engine since.

Also, Cosworth was sold last year to Champ Car co-owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe.


-- 1999 SVT #220 -- In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,431
R
Hard-core CEG'er
Offline
Hard-core CEG'er
R
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,431
Do you guys honestly trust wikipedia as the end-all and be-all for information?

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 38
C
New CEG\'er
Offline
New CEG\'er
C
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 38
Please allow me to post a slightly different version of the "orignal Duratec" than seems to be commonly accepted here. You should probably give this as much credit as you should with anything else on the internet, meaning not much, but hopefully it will at least make people think a little bit about some of the commonly accepted beliefs here.

The original Duratec was not designed by Porsche, it was designed by Porsche Engineering Services of Troy, Michigan. Although it may not sound like it, this is a HUGE difference. PES is a wholly owned subsidiary of Porsche AG, but this does not mean by any means that the same people who designed the engines for the 911, 968, Boxster or any other Porsche had anything at all to do with the fabled "original 250hp Duratec". Porsche Engineering Services was simply able to supply Ford with the designers Ford lacked, at a price that beat a number of other design houses in the Detroit area, like Trilogy Design, Modern Engineering, or ATI (not the ATI that mods the subframes, but the ATI design house in Toledo that did a lot of work on the Ford GT). These designers made 3D models of engine parts based on what Ford engineers dictated, much like McLaren and Ricardo are doing on the next Viper engine right now. They have a lot of control over the design of the engine, and have excellent engineers who make many recommendations to Chrysler, but DCX has the final say as to exact specs of the engine. If DCX wants the cylinder sleeves to be a certain thickness, McLaren has to do it. McLaren may come up with a great presentation as to why the sleeve should be thinner, but if DCX doesn't buy into it, the sleeve stays thick. Just as a point of reference, I was offered a job at DCX as an engineer for the doors on the Sebring/Stratus replacement. Because DCX wouldn't hire someone directly, I had to find a contract house to get hired through. Essentially, I would work at DCX as an engineer, but DCX would pay a contract house who would in turn pay me, but giving worse benefits than a DCX employee would get. I found the job on my own, and had to find a contract house to represent me, so I asked the hiring manager if he had any suggestions. One of his suggestions was Porsche Engineering Services. I had zero experience designing doors, and would have nothing to do with Porsche AG, but Porsche Engineering Services offered to represent me at DCX. I have a few friends who worked for PES doing engine calibration for the Big 3. They had zero contact with Porsche in Germany, but they were able to tell people they worked for Porsche.

Now, this whole rumour about the original Porsche Duratec making 250 hp, but Ford dropping the power 30% when they took the engine program back from Porsche and shortened the engine 2" to fit into a narrower than planned Contour, and because they didn't want the Mustang to be humiliated? Why hasn't anyone asked why Porsche would design a 2.5L engine for a family car for a competing company that makes substantially more power than the 2.5L they put in one of their sports cars 2 years later (97 Boxster - 2.5L - 200hp)? Or why they would create an engine for a family car that has the same amount of power as the high performance version of a sports car, with a bigger engine, released 5 years after the release of this family car (2000 Boxster S - 3.2L - 250 hp). If Porsche could design a 250hp 2.5L engine to be released in 1995, why couldn't they do a lot better with a 3.2L in the year 2000?

I've spoken with several engineers and engine builders who worked on the Duratec program and the reason they state for Ford pulling the program from PES was mainly because of a cancelled program at Ford freeing up many designers. The reason the engine got so greatly redesigned when Ford designers took control of the modeling was because of problems with cracking blocks and incredible camshaft torsional vibrations with the "Porsche" design, and because the block was a lot more expensive to produce than originally projected. The redesign just happened to coincide with pulling the design back into Ford. The cracking blocks and the cost issue were attributable to Porsche, who sold Ford on the idea of using very thin walls for the block, much like Porsche AG does with their engines, and on the assumption that greatly multiplying the volumes (Duratec vs. 911) could greatly cut costs of the block. Porsche Engineering Services couldn't design the block properly to take advantage of the thin walls, and the greatly increased volume of the Duratec over a 911 engine didn't drop the cost associated with this thin wall casting as much as anticipated. The Cosworth casting process did allow thinner walls than previously used, but not as thin as hoped, and couldn't get the costs down to be profitable in the CDW27. This forced Ford to redesign the block to use thicker walls which were more easily cast (reducing cost) and also added great strength to the block. Sure there are issues with oiling, and crankshaft whipping, but the block is incredibly stout, as stated by many engine builders, including Duttweiler (sp?) when he made that incredible 450hp turbo 2.5L Duratec for that Focus (I may have the power rating wrong, but it's close).

Maybe there was a 250hp 2.5L Duratec based on the original design, but since Ford was looking at using many different engines for their touring car efforts, it was probably an all out racing engine, and not intended to have 200,000+ copies a year produced.

I know many here won't believe me, and they probably shouldn't. I'm just some random jack@ss on the internet with 30 posts in 6 years who is posting what he heard from sources other than those on these boards. Hell, a lot of the things I've posted might not be right, since everything I've posted was heard several years after the Duratec was released, and all this stuff happened in the early to mid 90s, but even if it's not completely accurate, hopefully I've at least got you to think about some of the rumours that have floated around these forums for a very long time, and realize that they're probably not 100% true.

Sorry for the novel length post.

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
R
"Absolut Rara."
Offline
"Absolut Rara."
R
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,223
I'll side with Cougar Bob, as his statements jive with the way Ford really works inside. Most of the Porsche design statements come from Terry Haines who had no reason to divulge the nitty gritty details of how things work inside Ford to contract houses.


Balance is the Key. rarasvt@comcast.net
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,194
J
Hard-core CEG\'er
Offline
Hard-core CEG\'er
J
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,194
Originally posted by Cougar Bob:

Sorry for the novel length post.




That was freakin' awesome. Got any more info on the Duratec? You seem to know a lot about it. Were you involved in any part of the CDW-27?


Justin 1999 Ford SVT Contour (T-Red) Cardomain site
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  GTO Pete, Trapps_dup1 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5