Little bit confused by the mtx fluid change how-to

Yup, was searching in the meantime. Just realized how big of a pissing war this was.

Todras, you seem to be a fan of the Honey. Not sure I can swing the 60$ nor do I need to as I hardly ever, if ever rail on the car.

Seems to me that the RP synchromax is going to be my best bet.

Crap, not sure if I can get it for tomorrow....whats next best?

Originally posted by monsoon725:
Crap, not sure if I can get it for tomorrow....whats next best?

you need to make your own mind up, there are alot of people still running Mobil 1 with friction modifier, I am, and my other car has Valvoline or something similar with friction modifier, I have had no issues, but plan to switch to the RP Syncromax at some point

just because atf fluid isn't the spec anymore doesn't mean that you can't run it, I mean it was the spec before ... it is just not recomended anymore

The Ford Honey is $45. If you're not going to pay that then get the RP Syncromax.

Originally posted by todras:
The Ford Honey is $45. If you're not going to pay that then get the RP Syncromax.

Interestingly, I read that the Honey is a little rough on transmissions that aren't running like butter as it is.

My car has 80k on it, so its got its share of rough shifts...would you still recommend the Honey?

Originally posted by monsoon725:

Originally posted by todras:
The Ford Honey is $45. If you're not going to pay that then get the RP Syncromax.

Interestingly, I read that the Honey is a little rough on transmissions that aren't running like butter as it is.

My car has 80k on it, so its got its share of rough shifts...would you still recommend the Honey?

yes it is the correct spec'd fluid for the MTX, if your trans isn't shifting right then something else could be wrong, but old fluid definately doesn't help either

You read rough on transmissions? Would you like to state where you read this?

It put it in no matter how many miles. It's factory spec so what would it be "rough". Whatever that means.

Originally posted by BrApple:

just because atf fluid isn't the spec anymore doesn't mean that you can't run it, I mean it was the spec before ... it is just not recomended anymore

You guys had to piss Terry off huh?

....for a reason, that's why! FYI Some dealer put ATF in a warranty Getrag 6 speed in my machine shop partners Focus SVT.......rattled like an SOB...the HANDBOOK calls for honey...so after draining out the 'red junk' he puts in honey....magic!...NO ROLLOVER NOISE....The fluid spec was canged for many reasons.....and not just the MTX...the IB5 trans was change to honey as well...All Focus MTX/IB5's come with it as factory fill, all Jag X types with man trans come with it, factory fill.....a few bucks saved on oil at the potential cost of trans reabuild....that's bloody smart!....NOT....

Originally posted by todras:
You read rough on transmissions? Would you like to state where you read this? It put it in no matter how many miles. It's factory spec so what would it be "rough". Whatever that means.

In the archives.

Perhaps I didnt word that right.

Honey in subpar transmissions yields a transmission that doesn't shift as smoothly as one would hope for.

Just called Ford and asked for "honey"...had no idea what I was talking about...is there an actual proper name?

I just asked the guy to give me the price for a qt of what would be put in something like an 02 SVT Focus and he said $5.19 a quart.....that doesn't seem right.

EDIT: XT-M5-QS. Got it.

Originally posted by todras:

Originally posted by BrApple:

just because atf fluid isn't the spec anymore doesn't mean that you can't run it, I mean it was the spec before ... it is just not recomended anymore

You guys had to piss Terry off huh?

....for a reason, that's why! FYI Some dealer put ATF in a warranty Getrag 6 speed in my machine shop partners Focus SVT.......rattled like an SOB...the HANDBOOK calls for honey...so after draining out the 'red junk' he puts in honey....magic!...NO ROLLOVER NOISE....The fluid spec was canged for many reasons.....and not just the MTX...the IB5 trans was change to honey as well...All Focus MTX/IB5's come with it as factory fill, all Jag X types with man trans come with it, factory fill.....a few bucks saved on oil at the potential cost of trans reabuild....that's bloody smart!....NOT....

not trying to cause trouble it sounds like the spec was changed for several reasons, but I would have to guess the original design was for the atf fluid so just because the spec changed does that mean that you can't use the orginally designed fluid in the trans ?

but in the end running anything but spec is asking for trouble, that I agree with

maybe I want to kill my mtx so I can order a nice fully loaded HMS unit, becasue I want one some day anyway

Originally posted by BrApple:
maybe I want to kill my mtx so I can order a nice fully loaded HMS unit, becasue I want one some day anyway

Save you pennies ... mine is for sale

all together now!....

ATF is not the food for the MTX, ATF is not the food for the MTX

Originally posted by m!key:
all together now!....

ATF is not the food for the MTX, ATF is not the food for the MTX

I'm not joining that chant.

Originally posted by todras:

Originally posted by BrApple:

just because atf fluid isn't the spec anymore doesn't mean that you can't run it, I mean it was the spec before ... it is just not recomended anymore

You guys had to piss Terry off huh?

....for a reason, that's why! FYI Some dealer put ATF in a warranty Getrag 6 speed in my machine shop partners Focus SVT.......rattled like an SOB...the HANDBOOK calls for honey...so after draining out the 'red junk' he puts in honey....magic!...NO ROLLOVER NOISE....The fluid spec was canged for many reasons.....and not just the MTX...the IB5 trans was change to honey as well...All Focus MTX/IB5's come with it as factory fill, all Jag X types with man trans come with it, factory fill.....a few bucks saved on oil at the potential cost of trans reabuild....that's bloody smart!....NOT....

Yeah cuz its THICKER!

Actually years ago running thicker fluids was used in gearboxes with more "slop" between components, and thinner oils in those that are more precision built.
So are we going backward? Or is the new fluid engineered well enough to have a low viscosity to reduce drag but be thick enough to protect and stop gear rollover noise?

And why would they recommend ATF when new but now retrofit to a thicker oil? I mean 75w## oils were available 6-10 years ago, GL4 ones to boot.
Were they wrong before and right now? or are they wrong now but just don't care because the cars aren't under warranty anymore....thereby making it easier for Ford to blow-off the possible issues.

In his defense, several people have reported their transmissions being harder or nothy to shift after putting in honey versus mobil one.
The redline MT90, the same weight oil as the honey also seems to share this same characteristic.

I'm just thinking that if the FIRST advice from Ford is now wrong then why should we trust the new advice? I mean they are making a killing off the fluid now, an extra $45 per fill over what, $10 from ATF?
And how foolish were those people that were running 75w## oils 6-10 years ago in their then NEW contours? They were being told " You are WRONG for not following the factory fill...get ATF in that thing" etc.

Just questions that arise from all the

info.

Welp, I just went ahead with the Synchromax. If the transmission fails tomorrow, I guess its my fault.

I have always contended that it's a bottom line issue. Simply look at the price of a quart of Honey and then look at the price of the most expensive alternative ... that right there my friends is why! Yes, honey is probably a better formulation, but the cost is out of whack with similarly formulated products. Let's not forget, they don't call it a stealership for nothing!

Originally posted by Big Jim:

Originally posted by m!key:
all together now!....

ATF is not the food for the MTX, ATF is not the food for the MTX

I'm not joining that chant.

Neither will I. Up until about a month ago, that's all I ran. Ran it with the friction modifier on my last rebuild, and it was smooth as silk. Figured I'd give the Syncromax a try, and it doesn't feel any different than the ATF did. Oh yeah, my ATF was as red as the day it went into the tranny.

Mark

So this weekend I did a motor pull and a trans swap. I had two trannies in front of me and both had run MTL. I took the shifter tower off the first and alas black residue.

Same on the other. The owner of the car is currently running ATF in his car.

I have a new concern with the royal purple now...gear rollover noise. I can hear it and that bothers me.

I have ATF in my trans temporarily and I can hear roll over. Why does it matter if you can hear it? You have an LSD and an aftermarket clutch. Durrrrr.

From TH.

....a thought for the day re MTX lube.What if you
owned say a Jag X type with an MTX75 trans...the
handbook says the honey fluid....the dealer chart
says the honey fluid...would you fill it with ATF!...I
doubt it...maybe because its a Jag eh!...Then why the
hell would owners with the same type of trans...be it
in a less costly car use ATF????...I guess they don't
think that much of the cheaper car huh!.....catch the drift!!!

Originally posted by todras:
I have ATF in my trans temporarily and I can hear roll over. Why does it matter if you can hear it? You have an LSD and an aftermarket clutch. Durrrrr.

I suppose that is correct.

As for this question of "why one forumulation spec than then another ... the first was spec at some time and should be good enough". We are supposed to learn from our mistakes aren't we? Engineers do the same thing ... at the time, the engineers thought that the spec was good enough. xxxxx service warranties later, they have rec-spec'd the fluid to avoid known issues. It's a simple by product of testing ... except that WE where the guinee pigs

Originally posted by fastcougar:
As for this question of "why one forumulation spec than then another ... the first was spec at some time and should be good enough". We are supposed to learn from our mistakes aren't we? Engineers do the same thing ... at the time, the engineers thought that the spec was good enough. xxxxx service warranties later, they have rec-spec'd the fluid to avoid known issues. It's a simple by product of testing ... except that WE where the guinee pigs

But that's the real question isn't it. Maybe they know something they haven't told us. From the information posted here over the years, there was no proponderance of failed transmissions using ATF.

To add to that, Ford Honey doesn't have many of the qualities of most manual transmission fluids. The two biggest things going for it is that it is synthetic (probably group III, not the highest grade of synthetic at that) and that it has a high resistance to sludge (high TBN or total base number that resistists oxidation).

It seems to boil down to a choice of using a very expensive fluid that is good for two qualities or using ATF that is better matched in other areas but not as high in the ability to handle temperature extremes or oxidation.

Better still would be to use a synthetic fluid specifically blended for manual trans use. It should be an even better match. Two such fluids would be Torco and Specialty Formulations. Royal Purple may even be in that catagory. Red Line MTL should have been but has proven at least at times is not.

Different opinions is what makes a horse race. Hopefull we can learn to respect different opinions, especially when it is presented in such a way as to help others to make better informed decisions.

Just saying it is what Ford specs isn't a good enough answer for me.

Wow. Well said.

There is something to be said for not being cheap, but then again....

put in amsoil atf and friction mod around 20k then a year or two later switched to mtl. i just drained the mtl around 65k while it was sunny and as it was draining i could see right thru it like it was fresh fluid. car now has just regular valvoline atf for about 2 weeks to get it ready for another flush for the syncromax. mtl wasnt the greatest in the new england winter weather. supposedly the rp stuff is better in colder weather. surprisingly the valvoline atf has been shifting pretty well. i flushed my brothers mtx too. it likely was never done with previous owner. car has 50k and fluid wasnt too pretty when it drained out. both cars should be drained this weekend again for the rp fluid.

I'll put in my guess as to why the spec changed.

The ATF and friction modifier combination was cheaper and got the job done, but maybe not the absolute best performing option.

However, in order to save money due to volume Ford used the cheaper but acceptable solution. It would make sense that they would want their spec to be the same as production. If they spec'ed one fluid and used something cheaper, that would have looked bad.

So, once they were no longer using this "cost reduction", they changed the spec to the better solution.

Sure.

Originally posted by monsoon725:
Perhaps I didnt word that right.

Honey in subpar transmissions yields a transmission that doesn't shift as smoothly as one would hope for.

Just called Ford and asked for "honey"...had no idea what I was talking about...is there an actual proper name?

I just asked the guy to give me the price for a qt of what would be put in something like an 02 SVT Focus and he said $5.19 a quart.....that doesn't seem right.

EDIT: XT-M5-QS. Got it.

your dealership should be shot for not knowing anything. When I went into my dealership and asked if they had the honey in stock they didn't know off the top of their heads, but they looked it up and said they had it in stock for $20 a quart...and the friction modifier if I wanted. People, seriously, just go out and get the honey...it costs a little bit more then the other stuff, but would you rather have a shot tranny?

Originally posted by elraido:

Originally posted by monsoon725:
Perhaps I didnt word that right.

Honey in subpar transmissions yields a transmission that doesn't shift as smoothly as one would hope for.

Just called Ford and asked for "honey"...had no idea what I was talking about...is there an actual proper name?

I just asked the guy to give me the price for a qt of what would be put in something like an 02 SVT Focus and he said $5.19 a quart.....that doesn't seem right.

EDIT: XT-M5-QS. Got it.

your dealership should be shot for not knowing anything. When I went into my dealership and asked if they had the honey in stock they didn't know off the top of their heads, but they looked it up and said they had it in stock for $20 a quart...and the friction modifier if I wanted. People, seriously, just go out and get the honey...it costs a little bit more then the other stuff, but would you rather have a shot tranny?

Umm no.
I wouldn't rather have a shot tranny either, but HONEY isn't the only good stuff.
Just take the specs and use fluids that meet or exceed those specs. Ford cannot violate a warranty if you used a fluid that meets or exceeds their published specs. Theres a federal law for that crap!
So if you want the Honey buy it, but if you want alternatives then research and match the specs and pick one you do like.

Where did the name "Honey" actually come from? I'm running Royal Purple but when I went to my dealership a while back to find out the price for Honey, they had no clue what I was talking about either. They did actually find the fluid, but nothing in their books or any catalog they showed me ever gave it the name Honey.

It was just made up on the forums because of how it looks.

yup...golden colored fluid