Rear Sway Bar - INSTALLATION - Strengthening???

It is not required when installing the bar.That's why I told you to make sure and keep the bushings well greased.I didn't have any problems with my mounts until I waited to long to grease the bushings.You probably won't have any problems since you don't drive it hard and you're probably on stock suspension.I know It's hard to crawl under your car every few thousand miles to grease the bushings,so if you get in a bind and can't grease them spray them with WD40.That is only a temporary fix though.Make sure you stay on top of the lube.

Actually I'm running BAT Suspension Kit...does that make a difference...

So why does everyone say to beef it up? Is it just for serious corning?

The stock tabs are weak. There's a considerable amount of force transmitted through them when you corner, and the harder you corner and the stiffer the swaybar the worse it is. Stiffer springs actually help by taking some of the load off the swaybar. If you have access to someone with a welder (most shops can help you out), just drop the subframe and have them weld it up a little. It's cheap and easy insurance. Should be about $50, maybe less.

Holy man,

I'm all stressed out now. Thought I could just do a quick swap after work, now some are telling me to strengthen, others are saying no need...what should I do man?

I really just wanted to do the swap, but if it's gonna bust my car I rather not do anything...

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's just my feeling...

Rob

If it's a PITA for you just swap it in. With your springs and road use odds are you'll be fine.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
If it's a PITA for you just swap it in. With your springs and road use odds are you'll be fine.

I agree. Try it this way, keeping it well lubed. If something does break, then you'll have to have it welded up, anyway, but at least you won't have dropped the subframe unnecessarily.

Ok guys...I'll jack'r up when I get home...see what it looks like down there.

Sorry Rob, didn't mean to freak you out. reinforcing the tabs is just cheap insurance, so I suggested it. You don't HAVE to do it. Good that you have the information though.

Yes it will warp and could rip the mounting plates on the subframe with a 21mm. If the subframe show more sign of age, there is a greater risk. Even the brackets (usally go first) I do only street.

In my case even after beefing up the subframe, it still wanted to pull the brackets out (the subframe wasn't getting damaged after it was beefed) but even with new brackets to link the swaybar to the subframe, it was pulling the tab side out.

Maybe I got a bad batch of bushings, but when I had the 21MM in it seemed the bushing was too large for the bracket. And also it was so tight around the swaybar that it would always push the grease out, it was always bad to where the bar wouldn't pivot up and down by hand, until after a regrease. Finally I stepped down to 19MM, stock was 17mm.

If you want to run 21MM I would think about getting ahold of bradness and talking about the 4bolt swaybar to subframe mounts. You could be looking at 200-300 shipped but well worth it. That is if he can find a good one in the junkyard for ya.

There seems though people have different results. So think anything over first.

I should say, try it first, if you have problems then you know you have to do more work.

I fabricated my first reinforced subframe myself before there was good information on how to do it (I made it WAY to beefy) - the next time I bought one from a group buy.

BAT has offered a new reinforced subframe for some time now, but at nearly $400 it is pricey, most of which is the cost of the new Ford part.
BAT Reinforced Subframe

Your best choice is to have your existing subframe welded locally - assuming it is not tore up.

Your worst choice is to do nothing. With a 21mm bar you will tear the brackets loose regardless of how gentle you drive. Eventually you will have a wheel hit a rut or an unexpected pothole or something to stress the brackets. It doesn't take driving at the limit to cause damage - just driving on the street will eventually do it.

Mine lasted awhile without upgrading them. Finally it gave way well pulling into a uneven parking lot. Than I heard a sudden "thud" sound. Looked under after I parked and didnt see anything because it was now even (when parked). Drove a little more and you hear the bar "clanking" around. It could get you stuck somewhere if it gives way. It did to me. I was 2 hours away from home.

Here is some pics of upgrading I did:

You can repair the tabs with the frame on the car,you can't reinforce them on the car.

Ya know what...it's sounding like I shouldn't be installing this 21mm bar without re-inforcing...most are saying that it will eventually break away...am I wrong?

I don't want to re-inforce anything...if I have to do that...I'd rather just put some urethane bushings on my old sway bar and call it a day.

Please let me know...

Rob

I believe my current SE sway bar is 18mm...so I guess it'll do.

Hey guys,

How bout the 19mm sway bar? Is it worth upgrading my 18mm SE sway bar to the BAT 19mm? Is it worth it, will I notice a difference?

Will the frame/mounts still need re-inforcing?

Rob

Originally posted by Rob___:
Hey guys,

How bout the 19mm sway bar? Is it worth upgrading my 18mm SE sway bar to the BAT 19mm? Is it worth it, will I notice a difference?

Will the frame/mounts still need re-inforcing?

Rob

You should be OK with the 19mm bar. That's the largest bar that Ford put on the Contour.

I have a brand new 19mm rear sway bar and rubber bushings I bought from BAT (Ford OEM part). I also have heavy duty brackets and 19mm polyurethane bushings that I bought from Performance Fords for use with the stock subframe.

19mm rear sway bar, polyurethane bushings, and heavy duty brackets are really the best you can do without reinforcing the subframe. You will notice a difference in handling.

My Plans changed and I am not going to use these parts - if you want them, I can make you a good deal.

Rob, how does your subframe look? If it's not very rusty, just throw on the 21mm. Odds are good that you'll be fine. If not, it's a pretty easy cheap fix.

Well,

What's "rusty"

It has some rust, I live in Toronto, Canada, so they salt the roads here.

It has about 70,000kms and driven in the snow for about 3mths of the year (no serious snow..)

I actually don't want the hassle of having to fix it if it does break...so if there's more of a chance that it will break then I'd rather not put the bar on....I dunno..

Originally posted by JEDsContour:

Originally posted by Rob___:
Hey guys,

How bout the 19mm sway bar? Is it worth upgrading my 18mm SE sway bar to the BAT 19mm? Is it worth it, will I notice a difference?

Will the frame/mounts still need re-inforcing?

Rob

You should be OK with the 19mm bar. That's the largest bar that Ford put on the Contour.

I have a brand new 19mm rear sway bar and rubber bushings I bought from BAT (Ford OEM part). I also have heavy duty brackets and 19mm polyurethane bushings that I bought from Performance Fords for use with the stock subframe.

19mm rear sway bar, polyurethane bushings, and heavy duty brackets are really the best you can do without reinforcing the subframe. You will notice a difference in handling.

My Plans changed and I am not going to use these parts - if you want them, I can make you a good deal.

There is no actual difference in dimension between an SE rear bar and an SVT rear bar. They are variously called either an 18mm bar, or a 19mm, but if you measure them exactly, they are somewhere between 18 and 19. Some people and spec sheets round up, some round down.

My own plan, if I ever complete it, is to leave the rear as is with poly bushings, and swap my 20mm front for the SVT's 19mm front, maybe with fresh rubber bushings. I have the bar and everything--just waiting for a "convenient" time.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure how you could be stranded miles from home by a broken swaybar bracket, considering that the swaybar is non-essential to the basic operation of the vehicle. Did both brackets break, and drop the bar to a weird angle? If so, that's a different story, and maybe reinforcing the brackets ahead of time is more important. I don't know. I've never heard of anyone being stranded by a swaybar, but I've never heard a lot of things.

Originally posted by RogerB:

Originally posted by JEDsContour:

Originally posted by Rob___:
Hey guys,

How bout the 19mm sway bar? Is it worth upgrading my 18mm SE sway bar to the BAT 19mm? Is it worth it, will I notice a difference?

Will the frame/mounts still need re-inforcing?

Rob

You should be OK with the 19mm bar. That's the largest bar that Ford put on the Contour.

I have a brand new 19mm rear sway bar and rubber bushings I bought from BAT (Ford OEM part). I also have heavy duty brackets and 19mm polyurethane bushings that I bought from Performance Fords for use with the stock subframe.

19mm rear sway bar, polyurethane bushings, and heavy duty brackets are really the best you can do without reinforcing the subframe. You will notice a difference in handling.

My Plans changed and I am not going to use these parts - if you want them, I can make you a good deal.

There is no actual difference in dimension between an SE rear bar and an SVT rear bar. They are variously called either an 18mm bar, or a 19mm, but if you measure them exactly, they are somewhere between 18 and 19. Some people and spec sheets round up, some round down.

My own plan, if I ever complete it, is to leave the rear as is with poly bushings, and swap my 20mm front for the SVT's 19mm front, maybe with fresh rubber bushings. I have the bar and everything--just waiting for a "convenient" time.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure how you could be stranded miles from home by a broken swaybar bracket, considering that the swaybar is non-essential to the basic operation of the vehicle. Did both brackets break, and drop the bar to a weird angle? If so, that's a different story, and maybe reinforcing the brackets ahead of time is more important. I don't know. I've never heard of anyone being stranded by a swaybar, but I've never heard a lot of things.

I have a true 19mm bar, not an 18mm bar. Its actually for the European Mondeo. It is the largest bar Ford put on the Contour/Mondeo.

I agree that most people would call the SVT rear bar an 18mm bar.

I don't care one way or another about selling parts, I bought this for my 96 LX, but I have other plans now.

You could drive for months on broken sway bar brackets - the car would just handle funny and make occasional banging noises

JDS,

Check your PMs.

Originally posted by RogerB:
Also, excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure how you could be stranded miles from home by a broken swaybar bracket, considering that the swaybar is non-essential to the basic operation of the vehicle. Did both brackets break, and drop the bar to a weird angle? If so, that's a different story, and maybe reinforcing the brackets ahead of time is more important. I don't know. I've never heard of anyone being stranded by a swaybar, but I've never heard a lot of things.

A two hour drive through windy mountain roads. Good luck driving for months.haha

Originally posted by RogerB:

My own plan, if I ever complete it, is to leave the rear as is with poly bushings, and swap my 20mm front for the SVT's 19mm front, maybe with fresh rubber bushings. I have the bar and everything--just waiting for a "convenient" time.

Roger, why would you want to do that? I assume you're looking for a way to balance the car better according to (STS?) class rules in Solo. If so, let me dissuade you. I disagree with Ford's assumption that the softer front bar does anything good. When you autocross you really roll this pig around, and lose any semblance of camber you had up front. The normal rules for swaybars only apply if you have four tires on the ground at a reasonable camber angle. If you have a rear off the ground or have a front trying to fold itself under the car, going the opposite direction will usually help more. I'd bet that in stock class you could cure the car's understeer more with a bigger front bar than a smaller one. The extra weight transfer would probably be worth the gain in mid-corner camber.

Originally posted by Rob___:
I actually don't want the hassle of having to fix it if it does break...so if there's more of a chance that it will break then I'd rather not put the bar on....I dunno..

If you're this torn on the install, then don't do it. You've pretty much ruled out reinforcing the subframe. There IS going to be a chance that the tabs will break. If there wasn't, then people wouldn't be telling you to reinforce them.

The advice is right in front of your face, why keep asking for different opinions until you hear what you want to hear?

Mark

Well, you see, I'm on the fence about the whole thing.

Some say it'll be fine, while others say it will break.

Not sure what side to take...but yes, you're right, I've probably heard all the info I need to make an "informed" decision, and I thank you all

However, anymore info/opinions is definitely welcome.

Rob

That's just the way it is. Some people have broke the brackets on the stock bars.
I have a 21mm bar now and have done some hard driving and haven't broke it YET. There's a good chance it could break when I start running on r compounds.

Originally posted by Rob___:
Not sure what side to take...but yes, you're right

How about err on the side of caution?

I have a stock sway bar and I will be re-enforcing the subframe when I get bored enough to drop it.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
That's just the way it is. Some people have broke the brackets on the stock bars.
I have a 21mm bar now and have done some hard driving and haven't broke it YET. There's a good chance it could break when I start running on r compounds.

Were you running the Dragon with that bar?? You crazy turd!

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:

Originally posted by RogerB:

My own plan, if I ever complete it, is to leave the rear as is with poly bushings, and swap my 20mm front for the SVT's 19mm front, maybe with fresh rubber bushings. I have the bar and everything--just waiting for a "convenient" time.

Roger, why would you want to do that? I assume you're looking for a way to balance the car better according to (STS?) class rules in Solo. If so, let me dissuade you. I disagree with Ford's assumption that the softer front bar does anything good. When you autocross you really roll this pig around, and lose any semblance of camber you had up front. The normal rules for swaybars only apply if you have four tires on the ground at a reasonable camber angle. If you have a rear off the ground or have a front trying to fold itself under the car, going the opposite direction will usually help more. I'd bet that in stock class you could cure the car's understeer more with a bigger front bar than a smaller one. The extra weight transfer would probably be worth the gain in mid-corner camber.

Well, then maybe I'll keep the 20 on the front. I'm just trying achieve the right balance. I think I'm very close with my current setup, but I have plenty of room to play with Koni settings, tire pressures, alignment specs, and driving style.

With your soft springs it'll never be balanced. You need a TON of front stiffness to keep roll under control, and then you can crank the rear up until you're close to lifting a wheel. For a setup like yours it's just about keeping adhesion on the fronts as much as possible, and ignoring the rear. Do you have a camber kit? Camber makes a bigger difference than anything else. It just takes a moment to throw on a couple degrees at the event, and I had no problem getting it back to stock to go home.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
With your soft springs it'll never be balanced. You need a TON of front stiffness to keep roll under control...

You may have something there. I have an event this weekend. First time on dry pavement with my current setup.

I do have "the" camber/caster kit, but I'm afraid to mess with it without measurement tools. It's such a balancing act between camber and caster, and difficult to tell where you are. (As you know, for max camber, I sacrifice some caster.) How do you do it?

Gonna think about it over the weekend.

Thx

Originally posted by TourDeForce:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
That's just the way it is. Some people have broke the brackets on the stock bars.
I have a 21mm bar now and have done some hard driving and haven't broke it YET. There's a good chance it could break when I start running on r compounds.

Were you running the Dragon with that bar?? You crazy turd!

Yeah... it'll be alright.

Rob IIRC I think bradness is around you, but don't quote me... You might want to PM or email him. He could maybe help ya out. He might be able to ship for 150-200. Or if you drive maybe do the work, but he is busy. I will be doing a how to video on the rear subframe very soon I hope, just have to find a friend willing to hold the camcorder lol.

Originally posted by RogerB:
I do have "the" camber/caster kit, but I'm afraid to mess with it without measurement tools. It's such a balancing act between camber and caster, and difficult to tell where you are. (As you know, for max camber, I sacrifice some caster.) How do you do it?

It's not that much of a balancing act. I assume it's set for street and you're happy with it now. Mark the location by putting a sharpie line on the strut tower and the strut hat - maybe do two or three, and number them. That helps you make sure it's centered as well as rotated right. If the plates are adjusted symmetrically, it's easy to pick a track setting - just go halfway between max caster and max camber. Since it's a circle, that will give you most of the caster and most of the camber. This works well for me. I key off the dots stamped in the strut tower top. Also, you could make the adjustments easier with some sort of stop system. I have an idea for a cheap and easy one if you want.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:

Originally posted by RogerB:
I do have "the" camber/caster kit, but I'm afraid to mess with it without measurement tools. It's such a balancing act between camber and caster, and difficult to tell where you are. (As you know, for max camber, I sacrifice some caster.) How do you do it?

It's not that much of a balancing act. I assume it's set for street and you're happy with it now. Mark the location by putting a sharpie line on the strut tower and the strut hat - maybe do two or three, and number them. That helps you make sure it's centered as well as rotated right. If the plates are adjusted symmetrically, it's easy to pick a track setting - just go halfway between max caster and max camber. Since it's a circle, that will give you most of the caster and most of the camber. This works well for me. I key off the dots stamped in the strut tower top. Also, you could make the adjustments easier with some sort of stop system. I have an idea for a cheap and easy one if you want.

I'm always up for new ideas--especially cheap and easy ones.

Okay, I was thinking that the easiest thing would be to drill a hole into the strut tower and through the camber plate when it's aligned properly. Make it the same size as a cylinder of some sort - a big nail or small bolt or something. Drill one or two holes for each alignment setting, and then you can just stick the alignment tool (nail/bolt) into the hole to be sure you get it right. Do it at the alignment shop to get accurate street/auto-x specs. I'd do two holes for each setting, 180* apart, for the same reason I do more than one marker line.

My other idea was a bit more involved: put screws in the camber kit, and make stops that bolt to the tower. It has the advantage of being adjustable, but really you don't need that for the Contour unless you're messing with adjustable coilovers.

It's really not that hard. You can feel a relatively small amount of caster mis-match in the wheel, and I never have, so I must be pretty close with my marker.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
Okay, I was thinking that the easiest thing would be to drill a hole into the strut tower and through the camber plate when it's aligned properly. Make it the same size as a cylinder of some sort - a big nail or small bolt or something. Drill one or two holes for each alignment setting, and then you can just stick the alignment tool (nail/bolt) into the hole to be sure you get it right. Do it at the alignment shop to get accurate street/auto-x specs. I'd do two holes for each setting, 180* apart, for the same reason I do more than one marker line.

My other idea was a bit more involved: put screws in the camber kit, and make stops that bolt to the tower. It has the advantage of being adjustable, but really you don't need that for the Contour unless you're messing with adjustable coilovers.

It's really not that hard. You can feel a relatively small amount of caster mis-match in the wheel, and I never have, so I must be pretty close with my marker.

Actually, I pulled the "dust covers" off the strut towers tonight, and it looks pretty easy. You don't have unlimited movement under there. All you can do is rotate it. I made marks for where they currently are, and I'll go for max static camber at the event tomorrow. Should be pretty easy to get it back to where it is, now.

Thanks for the tip.

My testing showed I was faster if I didn't trade so much caster for camber. You'll note that if you turn the adjuster back towards the firewall 1/8 of a turn from max negative camber, you'll lose very litte camber, but gain a lot of caster. That's where I'd go with it. Also, make two or three marks - it may only rotate, but it's rubber and doesn't fit that precisely in the tower. Two or three marks will make sure you get it a bit strighter.

I also just remembered that your softer springs won't be completely unweighted when you jack the car up like my coilovers, so adjusting it might take a little more arm strength. OTOH, it might help keep the rubber centered in the tower better. Most of my problems came when I went too high with the jack and the camber kit dropped down into the tower.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
My testing showed I was faster if I didn't trade so much caster for camber. You'll note that if you turn the adjuster back towards the firewall 1/8 of a turn from max negative camber, you'll lose very litte camber, but gain a lot of caster. That's where I'd go with it. Also, make two or three marks - it may only rotate, but it's rubber and doesn't fit that precisely in the tower. Two or three marks will make sure you get it a bit strighter.

I also just remembered that your softer springs won't be completely unweighted when you jack the car up like my coilovers, so adjusting it might take a little more arm strength. OTOH, it might help keep the rubber centered in the tower better. Most of my problems came when I went too high with the jack and the camber kit dropped down into the tower.

Well, the deed is done, and I know what you mean about slop. It was a little trickier getting it back to street-aligned than I thought it would be.

I also found that to turn the adjusters, I had to step lightly on the wheel for a bit to "unstick" the mount. Then it still took firm pressure.

Going to max camber also meant gaining caster. I'm not sure what your experience is with that.

Anyway, it wasn't enough. Funny how you can walk a course a million times, but when you actually get out there, you realize you might have been walking like a go-cart, but that doesn't mean your car will drive like one. The camber adjustment probably helped, but I have too many other handicaps against me for camber to solve--chief among them my poverty of seat time.

The fun part was when I finished my work assignment and needed to drive about 5 miles up the road to get lunch before my heat. Whhooo-eee! That is not an alignment I'd want to drive very far on.

Hmmmm.

http://www.cse.psu.edu/~maynard/post/alignment.bmp

Here's your camber plate. C is max positive camber, D is max negative camber. A is minimum caster, B is maximum caster. Note that E gives you a pretty good camber gain from B without much caster sacrifice. E is about where you want to be. You certainly want to be between B and D - between those two it's a tradeoff, caster for camber. Outside of that quadrant you're losing at least one unnecessarily!

On the street, you go for the camber numbers you want, and see where the caster ends up. If caster isn't the same side to size you then adjust them until they (almost) are, giving up camber equality for caster equality. You'll note that there are two possible caster setting for each camber setting - one red, one green. Don't use the red ones! You want more caster, not less. There's no reason to use the red area on a Contour.

Hey JEDsContour,

Please email me. What do you want to sell it for?

Rob
surethought AT hotmail dot com

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
Hmmmm.

http://www.cse.psu.edu/~maynard/post/alignment.bmp

Here's your camber plate. C is max positive camber, D is max negative camber. A is minimum caster, B is maximum caster. Note that E gives you a pretty good camber gain from B without much caster sacrifice. E is about where you want to be. You certainly want to be between B and D - between those two it's a tradeoff, caster for camber. Outside of that quadrant you're losing at least one unnecessarily!

On the street, you go for the camber numbers you want, and see where the caster ends up. If caster isn't the same side to size you then adjust them until they (almost) are, giving up camber equality for caster equality. You'll note that there are two possible caster setting for each camber setting - one red, one green. Don't use the red ones! You want more caster, not less. There's no reason to use the red area on a Contour.

"In theory, practice should follow theory, but in practice, this is not always the case."

In your diagram, my street alignment is at A. The car feels pretty stable there. I moved it to D for yesterday's Solo event. Car felt twitchy, which was fine for autocross. I thought more caster would feel more stable, though, so I'm a little confused.

I gave the alignment shop specific numbers to shoot for on camber, and then told them to even up the caster as close to x as possible. I can't remember what x was, but it was a positive number (about 1.25 degree positive, IIRC)

The car felt twitchy because of all the camber. If you went to B you'd have a better-cornering, more stable car. A performance strut suspension has more like 10* of caster. IIRC, E30 M3s have 15* or so. Try E next time for the autocross, and whenever you visit the shop have them go for max caster for your camber.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
The car felt twitchy because of all the camber. If you went to B you'd have a better-cornering, more stable car. A performance strut suspension has more like 10* of caster. IIRC, E30 M3s have 15* or so. Try E next time for the autocross, and whenever you visit the shop have them go for max caster for your camber.

Actually, it was more like 2.25* of caster I was shooting for at the shop. 10-15 sounds extreme, and of course unachievable in this car. I believe you about the E30 M3, though. What range of adjustment is there, actually? If I went from the front to the rear position, about how much caster would I have?

Everyone is different. FWIW, the guy who stomps everybody locally in an SVT runs kit very similar to mine, except he has an SVT front bar with an Aussie on the rear. Otherwise, Koni yellows with Roc springs--again similar to my Roush but maybe a bit stiffer. Roush, I believe, very similar to BAT springs except linear rate on the front. Alignment settings--well, we both took our advice from the same people: One of whom tracks and autocrosses his car regularly (with modest success), and the other an automotive engineer of some distinction.

There are two major differences I see between this local SVT driver and I: 1) Ability, and 2) Aussie bar.

That said, I may just have to bite the bullet and get the dang rear bar upgraded.

Now, please don't take any of this as argumentative. I value your advice, because I know it is based on real experience.