svt zetec contour??? - CEG Archives

Yeah, for $12,000 you better have more to show than just a FSVT motor or just a s/c. Who was it that makes/made a couple different turbo kits? Street Flight? Demon Dynamics? I can't remember, it's been so long since I pushed the Zetec.

for 12000 can$ not us$ I get a brand new svt focus engine with supercharger. 6000 brand new engine , 4000 for supercharger and about a 1000 for the computer. This alone should give me in the neighbourhood of 190whp.The main reason for this engine is it's still a 4cyl but with more stock power. The supercharger is just the way I wanna go on this project. I love turbos and have nothing against them.I realize this is a lot of money to spend but i want to turn this into my little race car for the street.I do also plan on modifying the svt engine for even more power but that will come with time and even more money.This will also be my version of a 4cyl svt contour since they never made one.

have you ever considered the svt focus engine wont work in your car?

for one, that engine is way overpriced IMO...if u want that much power I suggest you consult one of the cougar guys that have a custom turbo setup...for not even 6000 u can be pushing equal or more power as that setup.

I do see what you're saying as a built up zetec tour engine pretty much reaches its peak N/A where the stock svt focus starts at but I'd rather keep the engine I have now...build it up to make more power than the svt focus and turbo that setup.

Sounds way cheaper and more gains...

The only reason to get a SVT Focus engine is for bragging rights. Yes, a SVT Focus engine will do 40 more HP than a stock Zetec, but it will not hold any more boost than a stock block Zetec. While the SVT is overall a better engine, the higher compression makes anykind of FI less than ideal and you will not gain any significant HP over a stock Zetec. For the cost of a new SVT engine you can buy a used stock zetec and make the bottom end bullit proof with forged internals, and still have a few bucks left over.

Now for the whole Superchargers vs Turbo's thing. The only thing a supercharger will give you over a turbo is easier CARB compliance as no exhaust components need to be touched to install one. A supercharger, will give you NO TORQUE compared to a turbo at the same boost. A supercharger also has MORE LAG, than the ONLY turbo kit for the SVT Zetec, Focus-power.com's kit. It costs more than any supercharger, but it's the only proven turbo kit for the zetec out there.

Here's a link to a similar discussion in the Cougar forums. A guy sold his Cougar and bought a SVT Focus and wanted some opinions on how to FI his SVT. http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=63&threadid=91001

personally, i would get turbo toms turbo kit for about $6000, put down 300 whp and call it a day, but thats just my opinion.

Don't forget about the tranny.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Don't forget about the tranny.

he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Don't forget about the tranny.

he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Don't forget about the tranny.

he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

but for 300hp lsd is all that is needed

So when you go only 50hp or so over 300hp than you need more?

More than 150whp and wheel hop can be a serious problem. While the tranny would need only a Quaife to hold 400+hp, getting that power to the ground is the problem. Even with 400+HP, Turbo Tom is barely doing low 12s because of the poor front wheel traction. He's gone to a custom ATX to try and get better times. But with an LSD, Koni adjustibles, solid/solidified motor mounts, and GC's and that should fix the wheel hop and give you the best traction a FWD can get.

And big drag slicks.

Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by ZetecRacing:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Don't forget about the tranny.

he has a MTX all he needs is an LSD and wouldn't need to worry about anything else.

And yet I see mtx owners doing much more than a LSD all the time,, I recently saw warmonger talking about his tranny and future work it may need.... oo but I'm probably wrong.

but for 300hp lsd is all that is needed

i wasnt aware that the getrag 6speed and the mtx75 were interchangable...

I was talking about the stock tranny, but Turbo Tom says the 6spd is doing over 300whp with a Quaife, just the LSD for that tranny costs around $300 more than the stock 5spd.

I believe he meant Foci to Foci. You can't throw a 6 speed into a Contour, bell housing and some of the linkage are different I believe.

Originally posted by Seawulf:
The only reason to get a SVT Focus engine is for bragging rights. Yes, a SVT Focus engine will do 40 more HP than a stock Zetec, but it will not hold any more boost than a stock block Zetec. While the SVT is overall a better engine, the higher compression makes anykind of FI less than ideal and you will not gain any significant HP over a stock Zetec. For the cost of a new SVT engine you can buy a used stock zetec and make the bottom end bullit proof with forged internals, and still have a few bucks left over.

Now for the whole Superchargers vs Turbo's thing. The only thing a supercharger will give you over a turbo is easier CARB compliance as no exhaust components need to be touched to install one. A supercharger, will give you NO TORQUE compared to a turbo at the same boost. A supercharger also has MORE LAG, than the ONLY turbo kit for the SVT Zetec, Focus-power.com's kit. It costs more than any supercharger, but it's the only proven turbo kit for the zetec out there.

Here's a link to a similar discussion in the Cougar forums. A guy sold his Cougar and bought a SVT Focus and wanted some opinions on how to FI his SVT. http://www.fastcougar.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=63&threadid=91001

Ummmmm the SVT Focus Zetec has stronger internals.....read up.

As for the whole S/C vs. T/C saying a S/C has more lag compared to a T/C is just plain dumb. T/C will always have some kind of lag.....when a S/C is "crank" driven meaning AS SOON AS you step on the gas you are creating boost.....granted nowadays you can get small, quick spooling, ball bearing turbos it still has a little lag...

LoCoz is right s/c don't have any lag which is why for this project I'm going with a s/c.I do love turbos though and I will put one on my next car after this project is done.I have a friend how has a similar setup in his svt focus plus some additional mods (cam gears,underdrive pulley, full exhaust system with high flow cat and he's putting down 217whp and 167lb-ft at the front wheels.If he can find his dyno sheet I will post it here.

no garantees, he may have lost it but I will try

Have you ever seen a dyno chart of a SC'd Zetec? They have no TQ vs a TC and serious LAG. Both the Jackson Racing and the Vortech make their top boost in the UPPER RPMs, hence the poor TQ. A PROPPERLY SIZED turbo makes it's full boost around 3000rpms, giving you great TQ. Why do they make their boost in the upper RPMS? Because they're tied to the crank, via a pulley and as the RPMs go up the SC spins faster. Also a SC, because it's tied to the crank, is a parasitic drag on the engine and isn't half as efficient as a TC.

Then there's the ability to intercool a turbo. The Vortech can be intercooled, but it would have to be a custom job is you tried a Air-Air intercooelr, vs buying their Air-Water setup. The Jackson Racing has no options for intercooling. Then there's the ease of turning up the boost on a turbo vs a SC, i.e. it can be done easily with a TC but not with a SC.

I've been surfing the Focus Forms for almost 2 years now and every SC'd Zetec chart looks so weak in comparison to a turbo'd Zetec. Look in this Forum's FI section, they have a topic comparing current FI options for the Duratec, and even on that bigger engine, SC get soundly thrashed vs a turbo. The only thing a SC has over a TC is they are cheaper than the only proven turbo kit for the Zetec.

Here's some HP figures:

JRSC SVTF kit: 231hp and 170tq at the CRANK at 6psi

Vortech SVT kit: 276hp and 179tq at the CRANK at 10psi

Tom's turbo kit: 282hp and 267tq at the CRANK at 9psi(239whp & 227wtq, early tuning figure)

Tom's stock Zetec Kit: 282hp and 287tq at the CRANK at 8psi(239whp and 244wtq)

As you can see, the numbers for the stock Zetec and SVT are amost identical when turbo'd and KILL any SC's numbers, especially the TQ figure.

If your gonna waste your money on a supercharger, go with the Vortech. It has better intercooling options and has more HP than the JR. Though a turbo still beats it in both spool up and HP&TQ.

i think the #'s say it all...

arent you beating out the performance #'s of the supercharfers also seawulf?

First there is no lag on a s/c. When the throtle hits the floor it's full boost.(crank driven). Turbos are exhaust gas driven which is why they take time to spool up they need the fast flowing gases to spin the turbo to make the boost.One more thing the s/c freewheels at idle and crusing speeds to be more efficient.I know I 've already said it but here it is again s/c have NO lag turbos DO. Here is the other thing s/c work with higher compression engines wheras turbos need lower compression which would mean I would have to change the pistons in order to achieve a lower compression ratio in my engine.

First, boost is boost, it doesn't matter what engine, or what compression it is. Lower compression is a good idea for either turbo or SC, but that's a whole nother can of works.

I can't speak for other engines, but when it comes to the Zetec a supercharger just can't compete with a turbo, period.

Let's look at a few charts.

Here's a Vortech on a regular Zetec at 9psi with several mods:

Here's my TQ chart, 211wtq at 9psi, stock block and full 3" exhaust(the blue line is with a 35shot)

Here's a stock Zetec with Turbo Tom's kit at 8psi:

Here's a SVT with Tom's kit at most 8-9psi, not sure which.

Here's a custom SVT turbo kit at 6&10psi

Here's Jackson Racing's kit at, I belive, 6psi:

Here's a Vortech SVT chart at 9psi:

That's a mustang dyno and the guy says it's lower than it'd be on a dyno jet. He posed anotehr chart where he reved to 7600rpms(stock redline is 7250) here: http://www.dfwstangs.com/hosting/Saleen09/resized_dyno_1103.jpg You may have to cut and paste the link, cause it doesn't let you view the image inline. That's actually fairly respectible, but I don't like the fact that he's reving past the stock redline. For ease of engine internals, you shouldn't rev past the stock redline on boost on the stock block.

Now the SVT will respond better to boost since it has a better flowing head and intake, but the higher compression means you won't make much more HP than a totally stock Zetec since you'll have to pull more timing on the SVT. You will never convince me that a SC is better than a Turbo on the Zetec, but if you have to go SC, go with the Vortech. It will give you more HP and TQ than the JR, though it's a more involved install than the JR.

I am currently beating every Supercharger kit for any Zetec,except the SVT Vortech kit at HP and TQ. I am beating the SVT Vortech kit at TQ, but again, the SVT head and intake flows better and has a higher redline, so it will make more HP. Tom's turbo kit at www.focus-power.com, is the only proven turbo kit for either regular or SVT Zetecs, and it beats both stock JR or Vortech numbers, expecially TQ, though it makes no more HP than the stock Zetec turbo kit.

Let me just state this one more time for the cheap seats. Buying a brand new SVT engine to do a swap then to supercharge or turbo it is a WASTE of MONEY since you can't squease out more HP on the SVT with FI than on a regular Zetec since the higher compression on the SVT limits the boost and timing you can run. Your best bet is to add forged internals to the stock Zetec then do a Vortech or Turbo Tom turbo install. Tom also sells the Vortech at a good price and his tuning is second to none.

IF, you could get a slightly used SVT engine and wiring harness and ECU for around $1000, then I think it could be doable. But if you're buying brand new, it's not worth it.

man screw the whole s/c and t/c strap a big ass rocket to the car and you can run an easy 6 or so but i dont know about anything other than a 1/4 no daily driver sh!t

Originally posted by fasti4contour:
First there is no lag on a s/c. When the throtle hits the floor it's full boost.(crank driven). Turbos are exhaust gas driven which is why they take time to spool up they need the fast flowing gases to spin the turbo to make the boost.One more thing the s/c freewheels at idle and crusing speeds to be more efficient.I know I 've already said it but here it is again s/c have NO lag turbos DO. Here is the other thing s/c work with higher compression engines wheras turbos need lower compression which would mean I would have to change the pistons in order to achieve a lower compression ratio in my engine.

INCORRECT. Because the S/C is crank driven it will not reach full boost until a certain RPM,, you don't just sit a supercharge on the intake and expect it to instantly make boost. Ask anyone with a supercharger (plenty of duratec owners on here) I believe the vortech for the duratec doesn't reach full boost until over 3k rpm. You can easily setup a turbo to reach full boost at the same place a s/c does or before. Not all turbos have lag, they have something else, can't remember what it's called, which is the point before they reach full boost but it is NOT LAG. A small turbo with a good setup will not have any lag. And as low compression is good for s/c AND turbo. High compression is good for n/a and nitrous... Why is this even being discussed,, you're not even gonna do it anyways.

has anyone ever stopped to think that the large amount of torque being put out by the turbo kits would make up for whatever "lag" there is?

Granted weather or not he does this, I think it's important to get the whole SVT vs regular Zetec discussion in the open, if it hasn't been done already.

Here's a good thread with some more info on Turbo's vs SC's. The main poster to look for is P-51. He's one of the smartest guys on the Focaljet. He's custom installed his own turbo kit, was one of the first guys in N. America to buy the Pectel Focus kit and tune it himself, and he's a former Ford Engineer. He says it all right here:

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=0964030ae99abf694fa8f4f7fce55009&postid=157113#post157113

you would be stupid to swap in a supercharged FSVT engine.

ANY N/A 3L makes alot more torque than the setup you are considering doing

doing a turbo would be the cheapest way, and it would also be the best way!

sueprcharged zetecs are weak, especially when it comes to torque (same for a supercharged duratec)

turbo zetecs are so much better than the supercharged zetecs

The crazy duratec owner speaks some sense.

Seawulf, this topic has been discussed many times before.

But you didn't have the benefit of my expertise then.

And I believe the term you were looking for is "boost threshold". It's mentioned in the link I posted.

P.S. Your in Ontario? Aren't insurance rates sky high there, especially if you got mods? I hear they're denying coverage after the fact even if all you got is lowering springs. Or is that a different part of Canada?

Originally posted by Seawulf:
But you didn't have the benefit of my expertise then.

And I believe the term you were looking for is "boost threshold". It's mentioned in the link I posted.

P.S. Your in Ontario? Aren't insurance rates sky high there, especially if you got mods? I hear they're denying coverage after the fact even if all you got is lowering springs. Or is that a different part of Canada?

Wait....didn't you blow your engine?

www.car-part.com

Dozens of SVT contour engines from totalled cars or rebuilt. Most expensive was $2500, most were 1100 A(1460 C), not 6K! Same tranny, new compy.

In Nova Scotia
I found 2 more in Ontario. But that's it. Most in Usa.

Originally posted by Cris'pus:
www.car-part.com

Dozens of SVT contour engines

Quote:

Also a SC, because it's tied to the crank, is a parasitic drag on the engine

*Not Zetec related but I dont care*

Everytime I hear this I laugh my ass off.
Part of my truck buildup will include a 4-71 blower on my slightly modded V8. Pushing a small amount of boost, (Im after the look and sound more than brutal power) I can rely on getting 75 or more HP and massive torque.
Im really gonna be hurting on that small loss of power to turn the blower when Im getting so much more power in return.......
Guess all those race engines with a SC that I see on the track must really be hurting too.
And on the topic of less torque from the SCs, there are different designs of the SC itself, some will give as much as a turbo setup, and some are made for top end power.

IMO, while both are good for power, I would rather have the instant pull of a SC off idle than wait for a turbo. Im a big fan of low-end torque.

rant off....

Let's see, no insurance rates are not super high here I'm only paying about 2100 for the year,which is good for the type of driver my record shows(2 speeding tickets)and that's full coverage. Since everybody has there own opinion on this FSVT engine and what a bad idea it is to buy new plus put s/c on it, I think I'll spend the 12000 on building a bullet proof turbo zetec. I think I was taking the easy wayout, and since I do all the work on my car myself (with the help of dad and his friends hoist)and it's my daily driver I didn't want to not have a car for a while that was the best way to go I thought so in the intrest of making all you happy I will turbo my zetec.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

INCORRECT. Because the S/C is crank driven it will not reach full boost until a certain RPM,, you don't just sit a supercharge on the intake and expect it to instantly make boost. Ask anyone with a supercharger (plenty of duratec owners on here) I believe the vortech for the duratec doesn't reach full boost until over 3k rpm. You can easily setup a turbo to reach full boost at the same place a s/c does or before. Not all turbos have lag, they have something else, can't remember what it's called, which is the point before they reach full boost but it is NOT LAG. A small turbo with a good setup will not have any lag. And as low compression is good for s/c AND turbo. High compression is good for n/a and nitrous... Why is this even being discussed,, you're not even gonna do it anyways.

Actually a S/C has it's turbine spinning all the time in sync with the engine, cutting the lag time way way down. You are right about the super charger not reaching full boost until a certain RPM because of the rate of speed of the pulleys, but the same applies for a turbo. Since the turbo turbine is spun by exhaust gasses, you will also need to reach a certain RPM, or a certain amount of exhaust pressure to spin the turbine to achieve full boost. Any turbo setup will have more lag than a S/C just for the fact that it's not constantly spinning like a S/C. Unless you weld your exhaust exit(s) closed, which I wouldnt recommend.

Thanks for attending class, you've just been schooled

So at idle you're saying the turbo just stops spinning?

And again, a small turbo setup is easy to build with NO LAG. And remember, a turbo has way more torque on a zetec than a s/c,,, so....... you've just been schooled.

And what happens on a small 4cyl street car is quite different than a V8. So although your supercharger on your truck may be good for it, a s/c on a zetec isn't a great idea. And even on your truck you can get more power a turbo, but if you don't want power, than that's fine, I was under the impression that this guy wanted power. Yes you can set it up so a s/c zetec is faster than a lotta turbo zetecs, but at the expense that it most likely won't be streetable.

The car's currently on the road, boosting, so that's all I care about.

Once the rpms are above the "boost threshold", anytime you step on it you've got boost. On my car, that's just under 3000rpms.

At 2500rpm I have 164wtq.
At 3000rpm I have 189wtq
At 3500rpm I have 208wtq
At 3600rpm I have 211wtq, peak.

It stays above 200wtq till 5200. A supercharger can't compete at similar boost levels.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
So at idle you're saying the turbo just stops spinning? And again, a small turbo setup is easy to build with NO LAG. And remember, a turbo has way more torque on a zetec than a s/c,,, so....... you've just been schooled.

And what happens on a small 4cyl street car is quite different than a V8. So although your supercharger on your truck may be good for it, a s/c on a zetec isn't a great idea. And even on your truck you can get more power a turbo, but if you don't want power, than that's fine, I was under the impression that this guy wanted power. Yes you can set it up so a s/c zetec is faster than a lotta turbo zetecs, but at the expense that it most likely won't be streetable.

Who'de you school Fool?
I understand all that, but your post above wasn't 100% accurate. I'm not starting a battle Kremit, I've already won the war

But in all seriousness, I agree about the Torque, theres no doubt in my mind. You've got many more options with a turbo than a S/C also.

I never said it stopped spinning, just doesnt spin as fast as a S/C at idle, hence....LAG.

Second Period just let out.

How about instead of arguing and making him reconsider doing ANYTHING.....

All those in favour of fasti4 of doing anything to his contour to make it one of the fastest Zetec Contour say Aye!

Aye

Originally posted by Cris'pus:
How about instead of arguing and making him reconsider doing ANYTHING.....

All those in favour of fasti4 of doing anything to his contour to make it one of the fastest Zetec Contour say Aye!

Aye

Who's arguing, thats just Kremit and I's way of saying add a turbo to your super charged Contour!

Oh yeah, and AYE

its not that superchargers suck on the zetec, its that the superchargers currently available for the zetec suck

same goes for the duratec, the vortec is a POS, and makes barely any torque!

so by the logic in this thread, the duratec sucks for superchargers too?

now i could build the bottom end of a duratec and slap on a supercharger from the 03 cobra, and have so much torque that i could never get traction, and light the tires on fire! would you guys still say these engines suck for superchargers.

its not the engine that sucks for superchargers, its the sh!tty superchargers being put on them!!!

Originally posted by Cris'pus:
How about instead of arguing and making him reconsider doing ANYTHING.....

All those in favour of fasti4 of doing anything to his contour to make it one of the fastest Zetec Contour say Aye!

Aye

AYE!!

Originally posted by bk4293:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
So at idle you're saying the turbo just stops spinning? And again, a small turbo setup is easy to build with NO LAG. And remember, a turbo has way more torque on a zetec than a s/c,,, so....... you've just been schooled.

And what happens on a small 4cyl street car is quite different than a V8. So although your supercharger on your truck may be good for it, a s/c on a zetec isn't a great idea. And even on your truck you can get more power a turbo, but if you don't want power, than that's fine, I was under the impression that this guy wanted power. Yes you can set it up so a s/c zetec is faster than a lotta turbo zetecs, but at the expense that it most likely won't be streetable.

Who'de you school Fool?
I understand all that, but your post above wasn't 100% accurate. I'm not starting a battle Kremit, I've already won the war

But in all seriousness, I agree about the Torque, theres no doubt in my mind. You've got many more options with a turbo than a S/C also.

I never said it stopped spinning, just doesnt spin as fast as a S/C at idle, hence....LAG.

Second Period just let out.

No I won the war before the fighting even started.

Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do. Quit using the wrong term. I believe seawulf said it was boost threshold... but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo. And then once the s/c does reach full boost it has parasitic drag, another not so great thing for big power.......... but if you think weren't you're saying is true, then if you ever get the money, go with a s/c for your zetec.

Remedial classes just let out (or just begun).

Quote:

Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do. Quit using the wrong term. I believe seawulf said it was boost threshold... but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo. And then once the s/c does reach full boost it has parasitic drag, another not so great thing for big power..........

Quote:

its not that superchargers suck on the zetec, its that the superchargers currently available for the zetec suck

Exactly, they are made for top end power, not a broad, flatter torque curve. There are SCs made for that, but not for the Contour.

so by the logic in this thread, the duratec sucks for superchargers too?

Not at all, its a great platform for SC due to how well it can breathe, IMO.

its not the engine that sucks for superchargers, its the sh!tty superchargers being put on them!!!

Hit the nail on the head. Although I would be happy with a SCed Duratec

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Do some research, not all turbo systems have LAG, quit saying they do.

but anyways, a supercharger doesn't reach full boost until a certain RPM either, same with turbo.

Hmm listen to yourself kermit. You say not all turbos have lag then a sentence later you say they won't create boost till a certain rpm? That's lag my friend. Yes some cars are claimed anti-lag.. rally cars I know they say have anti-lag. The closest I think any street vehicle will get to anti-lag is in a diesel. My old 323GTX made 5psi@2700 or so and 7psi@3000 and held that to redline. A SR20DET powered 240sx I drove spooled up at 2500-2700. Now in my book that's pretty damn quick for a turbo car. Inless you get a turbo to make boost at idle you're always going to have some sort of lag. Lag is lag no matter when it spools 1500 or 3000rpms. I'll take a turbo over the S/C, so what if I have to wait a second or 2 for the fun to start.

well holy cape crusaders batman s/c or t/c. Well really it all comes down to which one you'd rather have.Turbos are great but THEY DO HAVE LAG (ALWAYS)and require more tunning and mods to the engine to be accepted. Plus they have more moving parts so more to break and fix. Superchargers are pretty much bolt on have less moving parts (theoretically more reliable) and don't require as many mods to be accepted. OH AND THEY NEVER HAVE LAG (crank driven always spinning) wether it's making 0.00001 psi of boost at idle it still making something.all this bickering is you guys defending the FI system you'd rather have not which one is better and regardless wouldn't it just be cool to see a s/c or t/c fsvt engine in a contour???

yes it would. Oh turbo's go millions of miles in Diesel trucks without a hitch, so I 'd say they are reliable

In (Deisel) trucks not gas burning engines. They are reliable but there is still more to break because of more moving parts.

just one shaft that's it. All that turns is the compressor wheel and turbine wheels on a shaft. The rest is all plumbing. S/C's have the belt,tensioner for it,and then the supercharger itself. More moving parts too me.

How do superchargers have less lag than a Turbo? A SC is crank driven, ie it spins in relation to the rpms. Therefore the faster the engine spins, the faster the SC spins. Therefore the higher in the upper RPMs, the more boost and boost is limited only by the redline. So if you have a SC at 5psi, you'd only get 5psi at or near the REDLINE. If you look at the Jackson Racing base kit for the stock Zetec, you'll see it's making 150whp at 7000rpms and barely 130wtq.

Alright, I'm done. I could go on and on but this is ultimately about personal preference vs actual facts so no point in wasting my breath anymore. Go drive a supercharged zetec then a turbo'd zetec and then tell me which is better.

There are less moving parts in a s/c go type up superchargers vs. turbochargers in yahoo and do some reserche lots o info der. And there is no lag on a s/c it just doesn't make full boost right away but it is always making something. All of those who are mechanical engineers say aye, aye

Did you take a look at that link I posted from Corner-Carvers.com? P-51 is also an engineer and he says superchargers SUCK. He's also from Ontario and he's got a Focus with a custom Aerocharger turbo setup.

And anybody else with their own homemade turbo, say aye,aye.

no sense arguing anymore, its like talking to a wall

he obviously thinks a supercharged FSVT engine is superior to a turbocharged normal zetec. so much so taht he would rather spend 3x the money on it also.

he completely ignores all the facts that has been presented and still thinks the current line of superchargers for the zetec are better than the turbo that makes more hp, and ALOT more tq

Obviously many of ya'll don't understand s/c and turbos,,, thinkmoto and this thread starter included... As seawulf said a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,, and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,, but since ya'll can't do any research and can't get it through your heads what I'm saying, then go ahead use a supercharger and CLAIM how much better it is than a turbo....... afterall it's your money.

And thinkmoto turbo lag is not defined as the period of RPM where you don't have boost... but you probably can't understand that... we've already seen how smart you are.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.

All hail the boost god.............Kremit

if the dyno don't fit, he musta quit

or wait...

anyway this topic is down, whether which one is superior or not is irrelivant...the dyno plots speak for themself I think.

Here's the other canadian engineer who prefers turbo's to superchargers and what he said on CC.com forums, at least the most relevant part. To paraphrase:

Quote:

A home built turbo kit is going to be THE most cost effective way to make good power. But it's very easy to screw it up. Due to the stresses and heat invovled, not to mention the fact you have another independent heat engine operating (or two!) under the hood, there's just more to think about.

However, when you do it right, they work great. Just look at Porsche. They engineer them right, and the system is just as reliable as a NA engine.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My other thought is for power adders on the track, the big teams (Audi, Porshe, etc)seem to have good results with them vs SC's (and other than the Steeda car, I haven't seen a centrifugal out there).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SC's just can't compete, plain and simple. They are drawing power off the crank to power the compressor, and the turbo uses waste heat. Not to mention boost control.

I've often said, superchargers would be great if you could take a centrifical blower, gear it up to make boost early, but then have a CVT transmission to slow it down at higher revs, the idea being to tailor the compressor speed to provide the right amount of boost early, and hold that boost until redline.

The fact is, turbos do that already, with a much more simple system, and again, you can't ignore the fact that they are using waste exhaust heat instead of crankshaft power.

Roots blowers are horribly inefficient. Centrificals have peaky power delivery. Nothing down low, then too much up top.

A proper turbo should be able to supply full boost below the torque peak, and hold it steady all the way to redline. If you're really smart, you can have an intelligent controller that varies boost with rpm, and can give you an absolutely flat torque curve. Hit a healthy boost at max torque, and push harder as you move past the volumetric efficiency peak of the engine.

What's funny is, 90% of the supercharger fans I see on the Focus boards ONLY do it for the "golly gee whiz" factor of having "that cool blower whine", or because they saw it in Mad Max or some stupid [censored] like that.

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.

All hail the boost god.............Kremit

Tell me about it.....it is all about design....S/C can compete with T/C....all depends on car/engine/etc....Zetec S/Cs just don't make more torque....I'd still take one....at least it wouldn't mess up my ATX.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Obviously many of ya'll don't understand s/c and turbos,,, thinkmoto and this thread starter included... As seawulf said a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,, and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,, but since ya'll can't do any research and can't get it through your heads what I'm saying, then go ahead use a supercharger and CLAIM how much better it is than a turbo....... afterall it's your money.

And thinkmoto turbo lag is not defined as the period of RPM where you don't have boost... but you probably can't understand that... we've already seen how smart you are.

kremit seriously now do you think anyone will listen to you and make a sound decision from what you say????

Well considering you like to quote people so much kramit. Here is a direct quote from how it works TURBOs

Turbo Lag
One of the main problems with turbochargers is that they do not provide an immediate power boost when you step on the gas. It takes a second for the turbine to get up to speed before boost is produced. This results in a feeling of lag when you step on the gas, and then the car lunges ahead when the turbo gets moving.

One way to decrease turbo lag is to reduce the inertia of the rotating parts, mainly by reducing their weight. This allows the turbine and compressor to accelerate quickly, and start providing boost earlier.

So my proir statement is still all so wrong according to you huh

Originally posted by Thinkmoto:
Well considering you like to quote people so much kramit. Here is a direct quote from how it works TURBOs

Turbo Lag
One of the main problems with turbochargers is that they do not provide an immediate power boost when you step on the gas. It takes a second for the turbine to get up to speed before boost is produced. This results in a feeling of lag when you step on the gas, and then the car lunges ahead when the turbo gets moving.

One way to decrease turbo lag is to reduce the inertia of the rotating parts, mainly by reducing their weight. This allows the turbine and compressor to accelerate quickly, and start providing boost earlier.

So my proir statement is still all so wrong according to you huh

Thank you......Kremit, you have been schooled....don't make me go scan some books.

Quote:

Ok, as for the drivability of turbos...

It shouldn't be a problem if you pick the right turbos, and don't get stupid with the sizing and boost. Most turbo setups are developed with drag racing in mind, and that camp falls for the "bigger is better" [censored] all the time. They choose huge turbos, decrompress the motor, and use tons of boost. The turbos take a week to spool up, and kick you in the ass when they do.

My method of picking a turbo:

Choose your target horsepower.
Choose the smallest turbo that will get you there.

Most drag race guys complain that "you'll want more power later" "Boost is addictive, you'll want more", etc... They choose big [censored] turbos that could power a Kenworth, and then drive it with a tiny engine, with no response, and brag about how much power they COULD be making if they turned up the boost and ran rocket fuel.

Just set your goals, and pick the smallest turbo that will get you there. You'll have the best response and drivability that way.

With properly sized turbos, they work great on track. You should be well above the "boost threshold" in any corner. As such, boost comes on almost instantaneously, and linearly with the throttle. Where you get into trouble is with a massive turbo that doesn't spool until 5000rpm. You come out of a corner at 4000, get on it, then halfway down the straight the boost hits like a freight train. This is another thing that has led to false ideas about turbos. You often hear superchargers guys say they don't like turbolag... Again, this is caused by these guys who use turbos that are too big.

Another thing is throttle bdoies. Most of these drag race guys run these huge barn door throttles, that flow 1000hp with only 10* of opening angle. I've seen guys put these on stock engines, and then brag about how cool it is that they have a hard time not hitting the person in front of them in traffic because the throttle is so touchy. Then you combine that thing with a turbo.... the boost is like a light switch.

On mine, I can get full boost by 2400rpm. On track, I'm rarely below 4000rpm. At 4000, I've got enough exhaust gas that it can accelerate the turbo in 0.2 seconds. So, as you roll onto the throttle coming out of an apex, the boost is linear and instantaneous. Feels just like a naturally aspirated motor. Ok, almost. There is a *slight* "squishiness" to the throttle. But it's very easy to work with.

In my opinion, a good target is to double the power of the motor, with 10-15 psi. Beyond that, you're going to have to decompress the motor, and that's when you start getting into drivability problems. A low comperssion motor with no boost is a dog, and then the boost hits hard. A high compression motor will have more power when off boost, and the change in power output as boost comes isn't as abrupt.

I'm running the stock TB on mine, and refuse to change it. I'm sure I'm losing a couple peak horsepower, but I get much better throttle control. Since the air from a turbo is compressed, you don't need such a big throttle to flow the horsepower. Smaller throttles make it easier to control the power at lower rpms, and if you want a little more power up top, just blow on it a little harder... I'd bet half a psi would give you just as much top end power increase as going from a 55 to a 65mm TB.

Anyway, that's enough for now. Any questions?

From http://www.superchargeronline.com/content.asp?id=20

Quote:

The Whipple Twin Screw Supercharger-
Incredibly high adiabatic and volumetric efficiencies
Positive displacement design
Very flat efficiency curve combined with positive displacement design gives the most achievable torque of any method
Instant boost
A true compressor
Direct drive from the crankshaft
Compact and lightweight design
Virtually silent operation
Low temperature increases during operation
Very little power consumption
Unique combination of low rpm torque and high rpm horsepower due to the screw compressor design
Have the ability to run from 1 to 60 lbs. of boost

So much for SC being inefficient, or not having instant boost. Properly setup, one of these will have INSTANT boost OFF IDLE and low to mid RPM all the way to redline. Which is where most of our cars spend their time at in traffic and everyday driving. I dont think any of us keep our motors at redline all the time. I have not heard of any turbo system that make boost of idle, there is always some lag. If anyone has a link to one, I would love to see it, not just some guys opinion. Im always willing to learn something

finally an important discussion in the zetec forum

Ok, ONE. It's still off the crank, and it's still a PARASITIC DRAG. Now show me a dynochart of a whiple on a I4 engine.

Originally posted by Seawulf:
Ok, ONE. It's still off the crank, and it's still a PARASITIC DRAG. Now show me a dynochart of a whiple on a I4 engine.

Listen to what your saying....
You can turn the screws on a SC with your HAND. How much PARASITIC DRAG do you think that is? 2hp? 5hp at the MOST? And you get HOW MUCH in return?? Lets see, more power than stock and NO LAG??? Not to mention not having to plumb in an intercooler?
Read my first post about what I think about PARASITIC DRAG

Like I said before, all those drag cars that they worry about every little HP and pound of weight dont seem to mind all this parisitic drag, why is it even a point? Go ask the guys with the '03 Cobras how their car even runs with all that DRAG.......

If your whining about parasitic drag, then you must be running out of things to gripe about.
Your alternator is off the crank, you should take that off cause its a parasitic drag too.

My whole point is to shut up those of you that think a SC isnt as good or better than a turbo. Deal with it.

How is it a parasitic drag when it takes almost nothing, yet gives so much more power??

the more air that the blower moves, the more hp it takes to spin it!

so it may take 3hp to spin it at idle when its boosting less than 1psi, but may take 25 hp to spin it when its boosting 15psi, thus making alot more power than it uses!

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,,

You have got to be kidding me...... A blower gives boost depending on how fast you have it set to turn, thats why different size pulleys are used. Smaller pully=SC turning faster=more boost.

Really I didn't know that. Still not full boost.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,,

Its all in the design.

I have 2 mechanics here right now laughing at this post, total experience in building performance V8s is about 30 years. Guess you know more than they do. I had to tell them to see this post cause I knew they would get a kick out of it. I guess my experience building 2 SC motors are a mute point here, too

Get this straignt- An engine can have equal output whether SCed or turbo charged..ITS ALL IN THE DESIGN.

Wow, that's same great info. So they have experience with V8s, what were we discussing here? Umm 4cyls,, wow how relevant. No **** an engine can have equal output, but I GUARANTEE, the engine in discussion is more able to use HIGH power made by a GOOD turbo design than a GOOD supercharger design.

But since you're so great at this stuff, I wish we could get someone to fund a little project for us, to see who can get the most power outta a zetec, you with a supercharger, me with a turbo....

All hail the boost god.............Kremit
Darn tootin'

Originally posted by Thinkmoto:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Obviously many of ya'll don't understand s/c and turbos,,, thinkmoto and this thread starter included... As seawulf said a s/c never really reaches true full boost,,, and as I said, a turbo is also always spinning though not always boosting, but reaches full boost much sooner than a s/c ,,, but since ya'll can't do any research and can't get it through your heads what I'm saying, then go ahead use a supercharger and CLAIM how much better it is than a turbo....... afterall it's your money.

And thinkmoto turbo lag is not defined as the period of RPM where you don't have boost... but you probably can't understand that... we've already seen how smart you are.

kremit seriously now do you think anyone will listen to you and make a sound decision from what you say????

No, but they should.

But, hey, ya'll should all go slap s/c's on zetecs, and I'll put a turbo on mine.

Because of course SC's are soooooooo much better.

I already have a turbo, so somebody just needs to get a supercharger.

I was just reading an article about the new Cobra, speak of the devil. They did a comparison with a new Cobra vs a new Mach 1 with a vortech. The vortech'd Mach 1 out performed the 03 Cobra in virtually every respect, though that's understandible since the Mach is lighter and had higher compression.

They did do a test where the measured how much boost they had at what rpm. Don't remember the Mach1 but the Cobra had 7psi at 2250rpms and 9psi around 5000. That surprised me, I didn't expect it to have that much boost at that low a rpm. I only have around 4-5psi at 2250 and I don't get 7psi til 2500rpm, but I get 9psi by 2800rpms.

It is nice to have a discussion like this, even though we're so far off the main topic. The zetec sections are usually pretty slow. I'd like to post more, but I'm freezing right now and it's way past my bed time, got to wake up early tomorrow. I will post more later on the subject, including the scenario's when a supercharger would out "perform" a turbo.