Judge (aka 1Sick_Puppy, aka Brian) helped me install it at Doug's Muffler.
It was pretty straight forward; removed the crank SHO Shop UDP (left the ppwer steering one on) and installed the new Dual Mode on. I had to get a new belt 72.5" in length to fit. I started up the beast - and can you say SMOOTH?
Man it is soooo much smoother sounding (and feeling) up top, and shifting feels better too (gears seem to mesh better).
UDP is on eBay UDP for Sale

Cool, do you have the p/n and cost?

Please? I didn't know we could order those yet!

I want...I have money, WHERE do I get it it?????? GROUP BUY!!

I know that I speak for a lot of NECO members when I say........

"ME TOO ME TOO!!!!!!!!!!!"

Add me to this GB or get us P/Ns please!

Ummm, I'd sell my soul for one of those. I'll have to sell something, because I know I want that.

I assume you needed the new belt because of your UDP, and those of us with stock hardware should be able to reuse what we have?

So is this what everyone is talking about when they say that a UDP without a damper will destroy your crank? Is this a UDP that is safe?

No, this is a stock Ford pulley that is dual mode damping. Will help eliminate torsional vibes plus bending (crank whip). IIRC dual mode dampers are common on I6 cars like BMW's and I think Toyota's Supra, seems along the way Ford realized the duratec could also use one, but the 'tours never got it.

I may be able to get 4 more.
I will know in a couple of weeks.
I have to search my source for a p/n. Stay tuned, but expect to pay at least $85 for one. Last one I auctioned went for $90.

At the risk of sounding like an ass here,

If this is a Ford part, why are you auctioning them off? Just tell us poor shmo's the part number and be done with it.....

The reason Stazi is selling them "auction style" is they are very hard to come by and no one seems to have any clue as to where to get them. Stazi I don't think is getting them straight from Ford, he has an "aftermarket" source I got the other one, but unfortunately won't be installing it for a month or so since I'm still building my motor.

Rick

Makes sense to me. I was thinking they were just 2002 Cougar dampers we could pick up ourselves.

Sorry if I offended.

I already called Bill J. about the new cougar dampner and his part numbers haven't been upated yet. So, if Judge and Aussie are the only guys that can get it, sign me up. I'll pay $90, cheap insurance if you ask me.

Considering a stock 2.5L Contour duratec damper lists for $127. at fordpartsonline that's a straight up bargain!

Strange though, the Y2k Cougar duratec damper is only $45 - so maybe this (I'm guessing Mondeo) damper is somewhere in between?

Maybe this is where It comes from...Ed


http://home.att.net/~biker16/mazda_duratec_HE.html

Technical Data ? USA Specification Mazda 6


"Cast iron with 49.98mm diameter crankpins, with 62.97mm diameter main bearings and dual mode damped front pulley"

Well, last time someone took the PN to a dealer they got a regular damper...so Ford is depleting their stock of regular dampers....the only way to get them is through Stazi or from Ford Europe...

Damn, I quit bidding on the last one at $85. Well, I'll try again - I am in for $85 if you get some more..

Judge, would you expect this damper would make a 7300 RPM redline "safer" than the stock damper?? Basically, are the harmonics the major barrier to safe "mildly" higher RPM (I am guessing at even >RPM (say > than 7500-7800) valve springs & rod strength would become issues as well s

We do not run the vehicle that far out (stock ECU in test vehicles as far as that goes)........so I am not going to venture a guess.....but if it were my car I wouln't do it without total balancing and the upgraded bearings.....

Understand Judge. Can you tell me this- with the new damper (in the tested rev range), are the harmonics issues pretty much resolved with the dual mode or is still alot of room for improvement? I'm trying to get a quantitative feel for how much better the dual mode is / is it worth the effort?? Thanks..

Well, I am gonna tell you to ask Stazi what he felt.....cuz all the numbers in the world cannot give you an idea of the improvement (and the numbers are confidential, and I am not going there again)

"Well, I am gonna tell you to ask Stazi what he felt."

Stanzi already did say how smooth it felt. I was not expecting to "feel" a difference and thought Stanzi was probably experiencing the "placebo effect". But I think I get your drift..thanks.

Hey wait, does Mexico still get the Mondeo? I could be in a Tijuana dealership in about 30 minutes

All I know is that we do not get it and I followed one yesterday on Southfield...all the way to AEC and all I could do is wonder why someone at Ford will not pull their collective heads outta their arses...and bring us the Mondeo....AWD would be a plus.

Brian/Aussie...call me ...I have a source!!! 'BULK'...if you are interested....

I was just building myself a brand new Mondeo this morning on a ford Australia web site - to bad it really wasn't that easy to get one here (with all the kick ass options to boot!).......

Stazi might have come across a few more of these dampers....

Hmmmm - I wonder who in the US would have access to a few of these pullies and be able to get them to Stazi

FYI - the auction prices on these are a great deal. I talked with a guy from a UK dealership (http://www.smc-ford.co.uk/) and to get a 2002 Mondeo damper mailed to the US would be about 60 pounds shipped (~90 dollars US) with no guarantee is was a real dual mode damper, and no returns accepted.

Snap them up while you can!

I'm in europe actually germany and tomorow I'm going to the dealer for a recall and I will ask about it

As soon as someone puts them up for sale.......

I have 3 more DM dampers for Sale. Starting price is $90 each, plus postage ($5). If I get more than 3 offers, I will allow people to up there bid by $5 until I have them sold.

NOTE: these are probably the last 3 I can get for a LONG time.

Stazi - I'll start the bidding on 1 for $90 + $5 s/h.
Lee Ehinger

so, my question is, do these fit the Zetec engine? I'm guessing not but figure I'll ask just in case.

what zetec. is this one of those things that i cant use? or, it kind of seems like i wouldnt even need it with only 4 cylinders? lemme know, if it works i want one too!

It is for the 2.5L only......

There is one left guys. Current bid is $100 on it. IF you want to bid on it do it here. I will call the winner at 8am Wednesday morning, the 6th of Feb.

$100
Lee

Micah Watts offered me $110 by email.

NOTE: when I shipped a vouple out yesterday, with insurance the shipping was close to $11, so be sure to include that into your budget when you bid!

!He is the winner of the bid!

These may be some dumb questions, but bear with me please. What does the "dual" do for you compared to a normal one? Also is this true about this damper please cut and paste http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_of_power_pulleys.htm


Thanks for any info!!!

Keith...

Yes the article is true ! Myself and 'others' have been on about this many times before...I think a member of the SAE...(as some of us here are!)...know our s**t..!

This has been debated in past forums ad nauseum. Yes, the laws of physics state that adding a UDP is a bad thing. However, to date, to the best of my knowledge, there has not been 1 documented failure for this reason.

Do not take this as an endorsement of UDP's-it's not. My experience has been that the BIGGEST weakness/cause of Duratec destruction is oiling failure.

Cant agree,some time ago I put up some pics of main & rod end bearings,no oil failure on these engines as they were static in a dyno cell....no 'long turns' either....just because you can't see or feel anything this does not mean the matearial,the crank, is not suffering from fatigue.Without stripping and doing regular met lab tests for microstructure you will see,feel or hear nothing....

Terry: Can you tell me more? How do you know that it wasn't oiling failure? Simply because it was mounted on a dyno? Did it have a site gauge in the pan to determine if the oil was being retained in the top end? Someone posted a while back that even at 5K RPM, there was only 1/2 qt. left in the pan. I would think that high G force corners are a contributing factor, but the oiling system is certainly a problem.

I can tell you that wrecker Duratec motors are very hard to find here as they get snapped up quickly. They're going in ATX and MTX cars. Always oiling failure.

Two of them wer being run at the damper OME's test lab,both with solids Vs damper..controlled tests with a recirc oil system...no chance of pan running dry!

Terry - curious about crankshafts.

Aren't all BMW 6's I6, and don't they all come with dual mode dampers? Just curious, since everyone quotes this Dinan (and also seen the Supra articles saying the same thing, also I6 engine IIRC) as saying UDP's will cause a quick death. Is an I6 crank (in general) longer and inherently more susceptible to torsional vibe harmonics than say our 60 deg V6?

I know that physics is physics and we UDP users are "abusing our cranks" so to speak, but could the difference in 60degree V6 to I6 (which I think also have crank throws at 60 don't they?) may be responsible for the difference in timeliness of deaths from Contours (proven > 40k with no obvious problems) to BMW's (dying at one track event).

Any insight?

Terry: Thanks for the info. Don't know the details of the test, (duration, RPM's, etc.) but sounds convincing enough. Possible that real world testing is of insufficient duration....

Further to ScottK's ?, can you comment on the crank itself? Did Ford change the process/material anywhere along the line? IIRC, our cranks are tuftrided/nitrided. Someone said that the early motors are more durable-any truth to that?

Micah if you still want his DMD you bid $110 you MUST contact me ASAP or send the PayPal, inccluding $11 for postage. If I don't hear from you by EOB today I wil have to forfeit your bid and put the damper back up for sale.

Thanks!

A straight six has better balance than a V6,but that is only static & dynamic.We are talking torsional vibration here,ALL engines have it,its just to what degree can the 'twist' imparted by each cylinder firing damage the crank...

Bradness,

This was a research test done by Rousch Labs.

Wasn't sure, so I didn't quote whom did the testing. However, if true, this is not a good thing.... My experience locally is that there is great demand for wrecker Duratec motors. Always oiling failure. What does that tell you?

Bradness, how do you know they are oiling failures, what confirms this when you tear them down? Can a spun bearing from crank whip look the same?

I have been looking at all these reports for a year as best I can. I think some cases certainly sound like oil related - happened during a turn, oil light came on, etc. Several of these reported low oil in pan but not all. But greater than half occured with no hard right turn (some were hard left turn) or high RPM invoked. Just reportedly cruising. Hard to say how accurate the reporting is but many of these cases do not sound oil related but I think alot of people, including dealers ASSUME its oil related. I personally think we have good evidence that harmonics is playing a role here - enough that Ford actually changed the damper.

Would like to know more about the Roush testing ie. 1/4 quart oil in pan at 5000 RPM. I assume this is at SUSTAINED 5000 RPM. The heads may then be full of oil so that at higher RPM there is still the same amount in the pan?? So, how much oil at 7000 RPM. How much oil during brief spins to 7000 RPM? I suspect that typical brief runs through the revs are OK but sustained RPM >5000 PLUS a hard right turn (to get rid of that little oil around the pickup) = problems. I bet that for all but extreme roadrace duty, the extra 1/2 quart in the pan solves the problem as Roush suggested. But I would LOVE someone from Roush to comment...

And thanks for hooking me up with the dual mode Aussie..

I'll second that...

Um...so is this the dual mode damper from the cougar? I thought they were perfectly ok to use on our cars. And if it's a stock part off the cougar, why is it so hard to get?

I think you will find thet the dual mode damper is a stoc Ford part for 2000+ Mondeo V6's not Cougars or Contours....

any part numbers on them? I might be able to get more when I go to Istanbul

can somebody please take some pictures of it and post them =? please please

Pics soon....

thanks

I'll second the second of that, Thanks Staz!!!

Terry,
Do you have a way or know a way to get the Euro Ford Mondeo parts, I have tried my best, searching on the internet and I can't find anyone or a dealership to sell them to me. I am not just talking engine, but interior parts as well..


Ryan

So Terry, bottom line it for me - Installing it on a 99 SVT Contour, yes or no? Thanks!

SeRguy 'et all'...the answer is yes to both questions...I have sources/accounts in UK & Germany....be patient...!!!

I'm station in germany i might be able to hook up some things just let me have some time off and I look around

Dan: To address this ? "Bradness, how do you know they are oiling failures, what confirms this when you tear them down? Can a spun bearing from crank whip look the same?"

I have not done destructive testing as this would entail draining the oil and running the motor until it blows. Then a complete tear down to examine what went, etc. What does a motor destroyed by running with a UDP look like? Have to ask Terry.

IN MY OPINION this whole subject is a red herring. Why do I say this? The only documented failure due to a solid pulley (not a damper) was by Terry H doing (I can only guess here as Terry never responded with the conditions of the test) a destructive test in a dyno cell. This would likely entail running the engine at it's resonant frequency for as long as it takes to blow. Again, unless Terry confirms or denies this we won't know for sure. I do know that there are CEG's out there with in excess of 40K miles with a UDP and to date no blown motors. Again, I'm not in any way endorsing UDP's, simply looking at the available evidence.

There is hard evidence though, of blown engines due to oiling failure (& H2O pumps). THIS is, or should be, a far bigger concern to owners of Duratec powered cars than dampers/UDPs IMO. Sure, the dual mode damper undoubtedly is better than a single mode damper. But has the single mode damper caused 1 single Duratec to grenade?

I'd be happy to provide my sources and underlying logic if you wish to e-mail me direct. You have my address already or you can PM me if you prefer.

Test was not done by Terry. It was done by somone as part of a seal test (crankshaft seal test). A solid lower pulley was installed in order to make viewing lower seal easier (diameter was not the same as well as slots milled in it to view crank seal area). Constant oil pressure from outside was supplied for worst case oil pressure and the bearings went......so you tell me why they went? Oil starvation....I doubt it.....lack of damping.....yea that is more like it....and the engine Terry pulled apart is mine....and the bearings were shot to hell as the pics show. The Co. tossed the engine due to the failure (they could care less why it failed because it was not in the scope of the test).....second engine ran damper and the test finalized......and a third engine was started and the test ended.....Terry did not perform them......but I know who did.

Why then have Ford gone to a revised damper on all 2.5 V6 Duratecs if their isn't an issue?...

If this was a one off engineering "block" just to make sure the crank seal sealed - did they make sure it was more or less balanced? If they had cut non-symetrical viewing slots in it, when that puppy was spinning at 4000 - 7000 rpms it was going to be unbalanced as h@ll. While some people may risk running a crank with no torsional damping, I don't think anyone here would try and run an unbalanced crank (ie try and remove a harmonic balancer from a v8 and see how long it lasts).

Scott: good train of though but it just got derailed...the company makes dampers for the auto industry and tried to run the test per Ford request.....bought the engine through typical Ford parts (you do not work for auto industry do you......one off block for aseal test LOL)...the replacement was totally balanced by a local (Troy Mi) balancing firm.......

Nope - only have like a year of internship exp. with ACRochester (Delphi) for automotive exp. However, while there they did cob stuff up quite a bit - I've driven fuel system mules and seen a prototype Jag drive by wire system (they lost that work real quick when Ford got Jag) that would make you afraid to take the car out of the parking lot. Also ran TONS of fixture tests at Xerox where parts were made in peoples basements or "engineered" with dremel tools

I guess there is alot more freedom doing in house development than if you are a code one iso certifed supplier!

Not to dowmplay reliabilty improvements, but there are other considerations:

...
Montero Sport V6's are also equipped with dual-mass crankshaft pulley damper that helps quiet and smooth the engine
....

http://www.honda-newsletter.co.uk/sept2001/generation/
.....
Achieving high levels of refinement has been a key priority in these latest Civic models and NVH measures include an engine undercover, thicker urethane foam insulation in the front bulkhead area, thicker floor mat insulators, and noise-absorbing felt backing on the fascia. The engine itself features a high-performance acoustic cover and a dual damper-type crank pulley, while a higher inertia flywheel further improves refinement levels.
.................

Obvioulsy less noise also equals less vibes that the crank withstands, obviously you guys would know better if it was reliability or NVH that drove the duratec change.

"There is hard evidence though, of blown engines due to oiling failure"

Bradness, that was my question - what exactly is that evidence? I mean, how do you know it was oil related failure (as opposed to chronic effects on bearings by crank whip)??

Once again, we have healthy disagreement. I can't comment on what the internals of an engine run without a damper and blown look like. Maybe Puppy is trying to say that it looks just like an oiling failure-that wasn't clear to me from the argument he put forth. However, I do know what a motor that has been starved for oil looks like when torn down.

Again, my experience with my 95, purchased new, with lots of miles has been no such failure! I'm talking about "real world" testing, not in a dyno cell. How many people have UDP's on their motors? If the stock damper is such a piece of crap and UDP's are sooo much worse, then..... Look at the available real world evidence and what do you see?

I'm not trying to sell anything or twist your minds. If you feel more comfortable replacing the single mode or UDP with a dual mode damper, do it! I, for one, remain unconvinced.

Wonder how many qts of oil stay in the heads of the 3.0 Duratech?,how many Taurus 3.0 have failed with oil stravation?,funny as the oil system is the same?why put in a 3.0 when you will have the same problems as a 2.5? FWIW the duel mode Ford of Europe dampers are 'in the air'!!!

Heh, I worked on the Ford Electronic Throttle Control manufacturing group when I was a co-op.

I was a GM Scholar, got 3 years at the University of Rochester plus summer internships compliemtns of the General If it weren't for the economy in '92 when I graduated (across the board hiring freeze) I'd probably be driving a GTP or some other quick GM sedan now.......

eBay

JB

WTF is ebay going to get you when they are not available in the USA?

Huh?

JB

You pointed to Ebay......the ones being auctioned were from Aussie....I am lost her John...point me in the right direction.

I was merely trying to say that he shoulda put 'em up on eBay instead of auctioning them off on the forums.

John

Maybe he wanted to know they went to good homes...

Sometimes money isn't everything. (I can't believe I just said that)

Man, I try to offer something to fellow CEGers rather than try and rape someone on eBay, and I get harassed - sheesh! :rolleyes: You guys must be bored when you have nothing beeter to do than pick on a helpful CEGer rather than just let something slide. C'mon John be nice!

Anyhow I will take this oppurtunity to let Greg L, Chris A and Lee E know that I finally sent out your DMD's yesterday while under a good dose of Vicodin *Happy, happy , joy, joy, happy, hapy, joy...*

Why Vicodin you ask? Well, I got my upper Wisdom teeth yanked on Monday and thus I "stayed home" yesterday. Man was I zonked out, but sh!z did it hurt, I still have stitches in my gums! I got them pulled in the chair while conscious with just local anaesthetic - can you say ouch? The worst was llisteneing to the doc file done my jaw bone tith a file after it snapped a little!
The doc said they had the biggest roots he'd ever seen on Wisdom teeth. I may take a pic of them and post it for you sickos to look at, in the Pics forum, later today. hehehe
Peace..............

John: people were asking about them, Aussie had some so he told those asking about them they were available. :rolleyes:

Fedex just arrived.....

New Arrival at HMSi? I think so...

So far, all I've seen is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. IF the dual mode damper is so important to the long term health of the 2.5 motors how come it's not installed on the Cougar? Surely Ford wants to minimize warranty claims. What about other NA apps for the 2.5, like the MPV & baby Jag?

Frankly, I don't care if your name is Henry Ford the first. Give me some good solid info. to help me change my mind (which to date I've seen very little). Saying that a bearing failure is symptomatic of a bad damper design is a real stretch. Which bearing(s)? What was the nature of the bearing failure-spun, seized, scored or...? Was it isolated or pervasive? How about the crank-was it cracked, bent, broken, or...? Under what conditions did the failure occur? How many miles/hours of run time? Etc., etc.

When/if you can answer these questions, I'll have the requisite ammo to reconsider my original position.

Ok Staz I'm hoping you didn't sell the one you promised you would hold for me for this week. The Money Order had already went out on Monday Morning. I notified you Saturday that it would go out as soon as you gave me the OK.

Micah, I am pretty sure teh one he said he would hold for you was held....

Bradness: The part was not installed on the Cougar for one big reason: It was discontinued. I have not collected data on the other applications the 2.5L is used, so with the difference in tuning/rpm/HP I cannot say that the damper will help them or not. I refuse to put any more data reguarding dampers on the net. Ford put it on the Mondeo and every other 2.5L powered vehicle in Europe. It costs them about double per damper to go to the new design (testing/retooling/other stuff). I highly doubt the with Fords current economic status they would simply waist their cash on something to lower cabin noise a few db and lower seat of the pants vibration transfer a few g's. However if you wanna pull your head out and think about what noise and vibration is : The noise/vib's are comming from the engine. The crankcshaft to be more precise is the cause of them. If the crank whips around in the block enough for you to feel it, then WTF do you think it is doing to the engine. Smoking causes cancer, do you believe that or do you need to get it first hand to believe it? Don't bother trying to argue this stuff.........the data is out their.

Terry or Judge,
Would you care to explain the origin and reason for the following three pictures:




-Mark

Bradness,
The 2.5's for the Cougar (2002) were built and stored long before EOP of the Cougar..so not much chance of getting them fitted.Production of the 2.5 and final build up of Jag Duratecs went to Bridgend in Wales ,UK over 18 months ago from Cleveland.Why do you think all the dampers are in England?...For the Mondeo....The 2.5 in USA is 'dead'....I first saw these dampers on 'Ford of Europe' ...'Power Products' engines during a vist to UK in 2001....

So is there any possiblity of a secret TSB/recall or whatever it's called?? Be nice if Ford would at least offer the damper here. The Vendor is where, here or Europe?
Thanks
Paul
Mine is making this whomping sound while cranking now days??? (Cold start) 98 LS ATX built(07/97). oil level @ "A" on the word MAX. Mobil 1 5w-30 could just be the chains/tensinor not upto pressure? FL -820s
Seems run run just fine, however half affraid to rev it very hard anymore?

We now have dampers in stoc...HMS Inc

I didn't harrass you, or at least I didn't mean to.

Auctioning them off on eBay is the same thing as doing it here. Somebody that would find one on eBay wouldn't buy it because they wouldn't know WHY they would want one unless they read the forums.

Seems like it IS because of 'money', and not because you're doing a 'favor' to some CEGers... A favor would be selling them for $90 a pop and do it as a first come first serve basis.

As I've been told by a fellow moderator, my first post w/ the eBay link was a bit 'harsh', so ignore that.

Nothing against you. I won't buy one, so I'll just shuddup for now. I'll let you know when my engine grenades itself.

John
/not trying to be an a$$, just stating what I think

Puppy: Your comment that "the data is out their."(sp) is precisely what I'm requesting-THE DATA. All along, I used terms like "in my opinion", "I'd be happy to change my mind if...", etc., etc.

There's no need to haze over your comments with the "red mist". Just give me the info. I've asked for so I can change my mind. I do not have access to proprietary OEM info. as you claim to. My Duratec experience is exclusively "real-world", not test bench, dyno cell, etc.

Refer to my last post, answer all the questions I've asked (if you can) and I'll be happy to reconsider. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.

Terry,

will this be a regularly stocked item in the future, or are the 'supplies limited'.

Eventually I wouldn't mind one once I do my 3.0 swap...

John

Yes we have 'stocs' & can restock within 24 hrs...

Good stuff, thanks.

John

WOOHOO....he is finally gonna shuddup :p

I have found that no matter what data I put on here it gets ignored or is not understood. Let us just say that there is a large db reduction in cabin, as well as a large g reduction at the cranknose. It was large enough for Ford to get the new/updated dampers for the 2.5L in use for Euro vehicles. How about we play the game this way. You show me data taht disproves the effectiveness of the DMD and then I will shut up. And as for you comment "If you can".......you have no clue what you are talking about...so show me some data Bradness.....p.s. your strut tower brace is still dookie....
:p

Hahaha.

It's tough to argue with the guy who is holding all the data....

.....but I wont let that stop me When you consider that the 2.5 is a Jag engine now too, it is easy to say yeah they'd throw money at it for refinement purposes only. And hey, we all know price goes down as volume goes up - they may actually have saved money by using them on the Mondeo as well. I know Dan Nixon did research into the Cougars - and IIRC none of them suffer the same oiling problems that seem to plague the SVT's.

Anyway - I'm just arguing academicly for the fun of it. If you guys can supply a stock replacement part at a reasonable price that will improve NVH and will most likely imrove reliabilty too then you are doing a great service to CEG'dom.......

The whole reason behind "auctioning" them off was because of their apparent scarceness at the time. So rather than say asking for a fixed price, I let people bid oon them so that only those who REALLY wanted it would have the best chance of getting one, rather than selling it to the first dude with $90 burning a hole in his pocket, with that person not really knowing why he/she just bought the damn thing. You savvy?

Toss me another "red herring"! "p.s. your strut tower brace is still dookie.." Oh my, I see you just did.

Terry, check your PM's regarding installation of the DMD to my baby on March 3 in Rockford.

Terry can you please take a few pics for me and is there any part number at all on these things?

also whats the price on them?

Working out total costs,incl packing,shipping & duty.Will post thurs...

No can do. My beast is suppose to be getting a transplant at that time. BTW, whoever is holding up Terry from getting my car into his shop, I curse you with grinding gears and lean air/fuel conditions.

Mike Chris Pasut's car is in there, but its Not his fault. Some num-nutz salesman at Lane Automotive screwed up his clutch order and the damn thing isn't here yet.
-Mark

Easyyyyyyyyyyyy Mike!,its a weekend job(maybe!),didn't you know, I sleep on my feet!.BTW I have info on runners for your Sparco seats...yep I can get some from UK..ring me..TH

Mark, this week for the Ram Clutch??? :rolleyes: ,just being an ass! Thanks TH

If you insist.

I can be a smarta$$ at times though.

I could respond, but I won't. Don't want to start a pissing contest.

John

Would this damper be of benefit to all the Vortechs that are dying of wobble. I understand that this mainly helps the crank, but would imagine it helping out the jackshaft in some positive way. Tery regarding you posts on the 3.0 "oil problem" or more so lack of it, could you elaborate a little more for the simple minded folks.

Well, simply put, if your read the Taurus forums, you won't find a bunch of 3.0 Duratech owners screaming about oil starvation and dead engines. I'm pretty sure that's what Terry means by the lack of a 3.0 oiling problem.

I doubt it.

I would think the shaft wobbles because of the way it is mounted, not because of the crank pulley. Any vibrations/wobble/etc the crank pulley has would be absorbed by the belt before it would reach the Vortech pulley anyways.

I might be wrong though, but I just don't see how the crank pulley would have anything to do w/ jackshaft wobble.

John

Cool factory info on the DMD...

Toyota research

...Ed

I dont think it would make difference either, but anything that can cut vibration (since it is all connected to the same motor/assembly) may help a little. Just a thought though.

Regarding the 3.0, I was just curious as to why if they have the same oil system there is no common failure, but i guess thats all in the "head"

Yeah I've seen that - look at the Y-axis on page 12!

Engine RPM vs RUMBLING NOISE..... All analysis like this points out 400hz damping 'cause that's where the ear will pick up the "rumbling noise"

Basicly says the same thing as the dinan article - but both Supras and BMW's are I6 engines so what goes for them may be a little different for us.....

They do have the extra oil return passage that we have to plug when putting on the 2.5 heads

So. I suppose that once you determined who "really" wanted one you went ahead and dropped the price back down in secret right?
:rolleyes:
Well, I wouldn't disguise the fact that you are in it to earn a profit. There is no shame in that, its just business. You can have a business and have friends too. I just think that you could have set the price to one fixed amount and left it at that. Maybe $150 shipped, etc. Fixed pricing feels more 'fair' to the customers. No advantage is gained by anyone over another. Auctions are 'predatory'. Auctions are held for 'rare' items and are not designed to "hook-up" a buddy.
Haven't you ever heard someone brag about the deal they got on a car and someone who bought the same car feels terrible because they didn't?
The problem with your "auction" is that once the product becomes available at a fixed price, you run the risk of having it lower than what your auctioned parts went for. If that happens you have just lost credibility as a reseller, and 'Joe' goes away rubbing his arse like he got f**cked with no Vaseline because he didn't wait long enough.
If the price you auctioned them for is cheaper then there is no problem.

Some people have made posts with "undercurrents" in them which make the situation uncomfortable.
I hope that this post clarifies the situation for everyone by putting all the ramifications on the table.
My advice? Just ignore it. You are in it for the money and that should be OK and clear to everyone. It's clear to me.

warmonger

PS And Yes, I am considering buying one on the basis of reduced NVH.

Nice. Thanks for the link.

warmonger

One of the things I was trying to get across.

In any case, like I said, I won't say anything anymore, no need to over analyze it or piss each other off.

For what it's worth, I have no doubts this damper will increase the durability of the crank and reduce fatigue failures. I think it will also help the crank bearings in limit lubrification circumstances. The question is, was the mean fatigue life of the crank insufficient to begin with? And can half a pint of extra oil cure the bearing problem? If so, all you get for your 130$ is a smoother engine. Don't get me wrong, I might actually order the thing just for this purpose or for peace of mind. But I have a feeling its not "necessary".

We need as much information as we can on the subject. What we don't need is a higher than thou attitude and incomplete answers. I can see some people not understanding if it gets too technical (me included). But humour us. I bet some people on this board will have a vague idea what you are talking about... :rolleyes:

I guess I am not sure what else is needed....I am not going to post physical data on engines collected...cuz that would be stupid. I have answered all of the questions...
Of the people that bought them from Stazi: has anyone installed them and what are your feelings? The vibration that you feel at higher RPM is your crank going ape**** in the girdle. That is what is gonna wipe your engine out. Teh secondary mass is designed to remove the bending of the crank....generically speaking...

Geez guys, I bought the first one Stazi auctioned off and I felt the money I paid for it was worth the added insurance. For $130,150 or even what I paid for it, the peace of mind alone is worth that. Heck the cheap accusump kits start at $180 so how does that figure in. I still say Stazi and Judge are the **** cuz they at least got a few into circulation where nobody would have had them and this whole argument wouldn't even be relevant. Now that Terry has a good source for us, I'd recommend people buying one if they are in the least worried about the possibility of engine harmonics destroying the bearings. At $130 it's still a deal.

Rick

I haven't received mine yet...

I'll let you all know when I do...

To those that ask why the non SVT 2.5L and 3.0L "seem" to have less failures I would suggest this..

SVTs rev higher/faster/more often. Correct me if I am wrong (Judge?) but I expect that harmonics may increase at higher RPMs. You have seen SVT dynos - peak power AT or NEAR 7000 RPM fuel cut (compared with peaks around 5600-6000 RPM for the strongest SE/Cougars). Combined with lighter SVT flywheel (an additional effect on harmonics???) the SVT ON AVERAGE will spend much more time above 6000 RPM to wring out the power - except for all but the hardest driving Cougar/SE guys who represent a minority. And the 3L in the taurus/sable has the ATX which hardly ever sees >5000 RPM (I know, my wife has one). To me it makes sense that the SVTs (which are also overrepresnted here at CEG so you hear more) may have more failures. Premature failures DO occur with SEs and now even a few Cougars (3?) so it is not limited to SVTs - just more common (?). And the high RPM factor may expose SVT to more oil starvation as well based on the Roush data (minimal oil in oan at 5000 RPM).

Just my thoughts but I think dual mode damper is more critical for SVT & non SVTs who really rev it. I have not installed the DM yet (probably early March) but will give feedback.

Another Kudos to Aussie and Terry for making the DM available.

My DMD arrived yesterday, but the USPS wouldn't leave it at the door. So, I will be getting it tonight or tomorrow. Thanks Aussie!