Well, the CEL has come on twice in the last two weeks so I got it checked at Autozone. Shows up as a P0420 - Catalyst System Efficiency below Limit - Bank No 1. No symptoms other than the CEL.
Edit:
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Just realized I meant to give some more info... It's a '99 SVT with 42K on it. KKM intake has been on for about 8 months and just had a SHO Shop Y-pipe installed about 3 weeks ago.
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So what are my options?
Thanks,
Jay
The description that you list sounds like a Lean Air/Fuel code... Correct me if I am wrong... If you have an aftermarket intake system (KKM/S+B..) you may want to use the stock (or buy for $5 from BAT) screen diffuser before the MAF. Sorry if I am up the srong tree.
Actually the code is intended to indicate one of the pre-cats going bad according to bank number. It may also indicate an o2 sensor going bad. Other things to look at are a broken exhaust system, exhaust leaks etc.
Hope this helps a little.
Ah yes the dreaded P0420. I have it myself. You can clear the code but it will come back. It could be the O2 sensors as that is what is being used to interpret the operation of the precats but not likely as they are checked during the driving cycle by the onboard computer.
However given the prediliction of the Contour, Mystique, Mondeo to eat cats (see recalls for earlier models), (Ford should have given the car a canine name)I would suggest that the main problem is that the Ford engine management system programming is typically running too rich a fuel mixture in general which ends up burning too much fuel in the cats and shortening their life considerably. This is the main reason why catalytic converters die. Thus it is not a cat problem as the root cause but a poorly programmed engine management system that does not account for degradation of engine components and defaults to a fuel mixture that is incompatible with the capacity of the converters. Ford cannot blame poor maintenance by the owner. This is happening in very short time spans and without O2 codes showing up as well.
I would recommend having the components governing fuel mixture checked and changing the cats (use a remanufactured set, ~500 US). However Ford needs to take some responsibility here.
I would suggest that we place pressue on Ford to do something regarding its poor fuel mixture algorithms as it seems to kill cats which may be in conflict with EPA intensions and guidelines. Ford cannot place a higher reliance or dependence for emissions control on the cats than on the engine management system, knowing that they will fail after X amount of statistical miles and expect the consumer to look after it. That is being a very poor corporate citizen. A class action lawsuit may be in order.
I would agree with the above... Dying downstream 02 sensor or pre-cat for that bank. The pre-cats should be covered for the 80K mile emission system warranty. Might want to remove the KKM before asking the dealer to cover this under warranty. If you're paying, you'll have to search around to find anything but the regular Ford factory pre-cats, and they are expensive! If you have a healthy main cat, this is a good reason to gut the pre-cats.
So, Scott, are you saying that the cats are covered under warranty up to 80k? Is this handled thru the dealer or someother channel?
Also, my main cat is healthy. I just put it on with the new SHO Shop Y-pipe. So what's involved in gutting the pre-cats? I'm not really up for replacing them given the cost unless it's covered under warranty.
Are there any issues with just living with it?
It truly is amazing that Ford would do something like this knowing that their consumer is going to pay the price. Guess their not too concerned about repeat customers.
Not feeling the happiness,
Jay
Almost sure the dealer will want to replace the O2 sensor first. Let them do that, with the caveat that they reimburse you if the CEL comes back. Or, do it yourself and save the receipt, then go to Ford for the cat. That O2 is simple to replace.
The cats in the manifold are covered under a 8/80 warranty and a bad one should be replaced free of charge by any Ford dealer. If you let it go, it *could* start to disintegrate and clog up, and that's not good at all.
Know a local dealer that won't completely freak over mods? Pretty sure to get grief over the Y pipe, even though it should have no bearing on pre-cat failure.
If you want to gut the pre-cats, you should remove them from the car or risk the motor inhaling a bunch of ceramic dust. Take a look at the rear manifold, and you'll know why I am replacing my bad pre-cat (same code) with a junkyard manifold. If I take the rear manifold off, headers are going on!
PA 3L SVT,
Thanks for the info. I have both the stock intake and Y pipe so I can easily put them back in place. I agree the Y pipe couldn't possibly have anything to do with pre-cat failure, but we all know how dealerships operate.
So are you going to gut the pre-cat on the junkyard manifold or are you going with the belief that it's still good and will last a reasonable amount of time? In line with that... does it make sense to gut just one pre-cat or do both need to be done at the same time?
Also, given your comments I'm assuming that bank 1 is the front manifold and therefore, the easier one to get to. Is that correct?
Thanks again,
Jay
FYI,
My 1998 Warranty guide specifically states the vehicles with California Emissions systems have a separate 7/70 warranty on cats and a couple of other items. 8/80 does not apply to these vehicles.
I believe the emmision system has to be built to last for a certain expected life or something like that per EPA Regs. It was 80K for TN, So your pre-cats might be covered by a manufacturers warranty. I would suggest putting the car & exhaust back as close to stock as possible, or the dealer may refuse the warranty coverage. Good luck!
Gutting the pre-cats is a messy job requiring pretty much a complet removal of the exhaust system. A search should bring up several recent threads on this.
Actually, now that I think of it, I've been getting a Bank 2 code (I hope, otherwise I just screwed myself). I'll be sure to set the code after this weekend, so I'll know for sure. I'll nominate myself for Bonehead of the Year if I did this wrong.
Isn't Bank 1 the firewall side? If so, more reason to make the dealer do it.
I'm leaving the precat in the manfold I bought. I got it off a 32,000 mile wrecked 98, so that precat should have plenty of life left. Who wants to bet I get a code for the other side right after I replace this one?
I didn't see much point in gutting one precat. It would throw the A/F ratio off on the banks (gutted vs. not), and since I can only monitor one side at a time (with S-AFC or wideband O2), there would be no way to get the settings right. Either one side would end up rich or the other would end up lean.
Originally posted by PA 3L SVT:
Isn't Bank 1 the firewall side?
Yes.
I'm pretty sure bank 1 is closest to firewall/driver. Gutting 1 precat is probably not a good option.
Well guys, thanks for all the info. Sounds like I'll be putting the stock intake and Y pipe back on. Then it's off to see the dealer. I'll double check with them that it is covered prior to putting anything back. The only thing I can't put back is the stock resonator which I got rid of a while back (not inculding wheels, springs, and sway bar which I can't imagine them balking at in regards to this). Currently, I have a Magnaflow in. Hope they don't give me grief about that.
Thanks,
Jay
FWIW, my P0420 (no other codes present) was due to a failing downstream O2 sensor, so I second (third?) the notion of replacing that sensor first. This one is waaaaaaay easier than the bank 1 upstream sensor!
Ok, it's just now registering in my thick head that you guys are saying downstream O2 sensor. I kept assuming it was an upstream one. Or maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology.
So how many sensors are there? Where are they? And which one it is that possibly needs to be replaced in this situation?
I've only actually seen one myself and it's the one on the Y pipe just before the main cat. So I was assuming the one we were talking about must be on the manifold (upstream) since the code is specifying a particular Bank.
Sensor overloaded,
Jay
Originally posted by SVT-N:
So how many sensors are there?
I believe that you should have four O2 sensors. Two on each bank (and there are two banks).
Originally posted by SVT-N:
Where are they?
Bank 1 is next to the firewall (since the engine is put in sideways), and Bank 2 is next to the radiator. Each bank has two sensors, one upstream and one downstream. The upstream sensors are hardest to get to (with Bank 1 being the hardest of all).
The Bank 1 upstream sensor is underneath the ignition coil(about 9-12") . You can't really see it unless you get under the car or remove the ignition coil.
The Bank 2 upstream sensor is next to the oil filter. You should be able to see it from above.
I believe that you should be able to see both of the downstream sensors by looking underneath the car.
Originally posted by SVT-N:
Ok, it's just now registering in my thick head that you guys are saying downstream O2 sensor. I kept assuming it was an upstream one. Or maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology.
So how many sensors are there? Where are they? And which one it is that possibly needs to be replaced in this situation?
I've only actually seen one myself and it's the one on the Y pipe just before the main cat. So I was assuming the one we were talking about must be on the manifold (upstream) since the code is specifying a particular Bank.
Sensor overloaded,
Jay
P0420 would be triggered most likely by a downstream sensor after the precat. So, I would look at the bank 1 downstream sensor. These are very easy to change. These sensors monitor the exhaust after going through the precats.
Ok, what you guys are saying makes sense. The only question I have is... then what sensor is it that is on the Y pipe just before the main cat?
Originally posted by SVT-N:
Ok, what you guys are saying makes sense. The only question I have is... then what sensor is it that is on the Y pipe just before the main cat?
Downstream, Bank 1.
Excellent info guys! Thanks a million!
Jay
Hi guys. So my ???? is this? Say you didnt buy the car new. Mine is a 98.5 csvt with 42,000 on her an i think i'm the second owner, should ford still replace them if it is the cat's??
Just wanted to give an update for those that were following this thread a while back...
Well, it's been roughly 2-3 weeks now since I had the stock Y-pipe put back in and so far (knock on wood)
no CEL! So apparently something with the Y-pipe was causing it.
Anyway, I'm happier with it removed. Not only for the CEL, but the volume of the exhaust was just too
much for the long commute I have everyday. However, I do miss the extra pull it gave.
Thanks again for the assistance you all gave,
Jay
Originally posted by SVT-N:
Just wanted to give an update for those that were following this thread a while back...
Well, it's been roughly 2-3 weeks now since I had the stock Y-pipe put back in and so far (knock on wood)
no CEL! So apparently something with the Y-pipe was causing it.
Anyway, I'm happier with it removed. Not only for the CEL, but the volume of the exhaust was just too
much for the long commute I have everyday. However, I do miss the extra pull it gave.
Thanks again for the assistance you all gave,
Jay
Don't jump the gun just yet. It takes a while for the catalyst test to run in OBDII. Also, I know some people have cleard the 420 code and it didn't come back for a couple of months!!!
Hopefully you have solved the problem, but the Y-pipe causing that code does not make any sense to me anyway.
I have thought it over and if the y-pipe was leaking or if the connections were loose, this would cause a 420. The Ford Service Manual states that a leak in the exhaust or a broken exhaust will trip this code.
Yeah, I know I probably just jinxed myself by saying anything.
However, when the SHO Shop Y was on the CEL came on constistantly every 2-3 workdays. I put 60 miles a day on the car driving to and from work so it gets a lot of time to do it's testing.
I agree that the Y shouldn't have caused the problem. It probably was a leak as you suggested or my sensor is overly senesitive (going bad). Just thought I would share the info. Don't mean to mislead anyone.
Cheers,
Jay
I knew I shouldn't of said anything! IT'S BACK!
So when the SHO y-pipe was being put on the mechanic noticed that the plastic connector between the O2 sensor and the wiring leading up to into the engine bay had at some point come into contact with heat and is pretty mutilated. This may be the problem. He told me he couldn't do anything and it would have to be handled at the dealer due the the complete wiring needing to be replaced.
Can I try bypassing that connector and splicing the wires together or does it do something other than just connect?
Any suggestions (other than not speaking too soon)?
Thanks,
Jay
If you can solder, get a harness from a junk yard and splice in the replacement for the damaged section.