I sent this email to "Cars at Carlisle"

Moderators, if you think this is important enough to be stickeyed, I'd appreciate it.

I recently sent this email to Cars at Carlisle:

-----Original Message-----
From: wa2tuffataol.com [mailto:wa2tuffataol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 6:06 PM
To: info@carsatcarlisle.com
Subject: Contest categories question

I recently attended the Ford Nationals for the second time. I drive a 2000 Ford Contour SVT and was entered into the Fun Field voting. I didn't win last year but this year, I was fortunate to achieve 2nd place.

My question is this: I notice that each model has their own class, and the same category almost always has an additional class for modified. The Contour/Mystique was made from 1995 to 2000 with 2 distinct models, i.e., 95 to 97 and 98 to 2000. The SVT was introduced from 1998 to 2000. Each section should also have a modified class. If you follow this with the Contour as you have the other models from Ford, there would be at least 6 classes instead of just the two you currently have. With the representation that the CEG (Contour Enthusiasts Group) had for 2005, there could have been winners in each group. It only seems fair that a model with a following the Contour has should be able to compete in more than just 2 classes. Many of us take pride in restoring our cars, while others (such as myself) take pride in the mods we are able to do to our cars in order to make them stand out. I would hope that Cars at Carlisle will consider my request and honor our cars in the same manner that other Ford models are honored. Thank you for your time and I eagerly await a positive response. Thomas Hoyt

The 6 classes mentioned above would be:

1. Contour/Mystique 1995/1997
2. Contour/Mystique 1995/1997 Modified
3. Contour/Mystique 1998/2000
4. Contour/Mystique 1998/2000 Modified
5. Contour SVT 1998/2000
6. Contour SVT 1998/2000 Modified

This is the response that I just received:

I will keep this information for the 2006 year. But one thing you must keep in mind there must be enough cars participating to justify the number of classes. I don't think the Contour participation has reached that level.
lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:20 PM
Subject: FW: Contest categories question

IIRC, we had maybe 20 cars show up. I'd like to know what kind of participation we really had and maybe we can convince them to show us abit more respect next year. If each of us who went this year would put themselves by their respective class, perhaps we can show some strength in numbers. Just copy and paste. To get started:

1. Contour/Mystique 1995/1997
2. Contour/Mystique 1995/1997 Modified
3. Contour/Mystique 1998/2000
4. Contour/Mystique 1998/2000 Modified
5. Contour SVT 1998/2000
6. Contour SVT 1998/2000 Modified

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. 2000 CSVT-wa2tuff

i would think anything other than stock would be 'modded'

Maybe just try to get one or two contour classes.

I have attended a Ford show in Florida the past two years and get grouped with all 1948+ Fords. That means any non-mustang, cougar/thunderbird, and some others are all in that class.

Originally posted by 98_HO_Contour:

1.
2.
3. 1998 SE-98_HO_Contour
4. 1999 SE - brapple
5.
6. 2000 CSVT-wa2tuff

ok while I see your point, its possible that they didnt have the funds to have extra trophies to set up the extra classes this year. Not sure just guessing. I can tell you from a judges standpoint(i judge IndyTruckBash) that you never know until the day of awards how many cars you have of each class. Also shows will not break down every little aspect of a model of a car until they see that this particular vehicle has been to shows more and more. For example, when are show comes around this year, i guarentee that at least 3-5 Dodge Magnums will roll thru, but they will not have a separate class due to the fact that they are so new and you just dont see many of them around for car shows(i've only seen two this year and i've been to at least a dozen shows around the midwest and south this year). now if the magnums start to increase in numbers, we will create a class for it. some shows like to keep a smaller group of classes for some odd reason, i find alot of times my Acura Integra is in the same class as Honda Civics, but Honda Preludes and Accords are together in another class, doesnt make sense when Integras have been around alot for along time and it still happens. Give it time, the class could be broken down more as time goes on, just need a strong showing every year. hope that sheds some light on this.

Wa2Tuff, I've been a part of helping organize our local mustang clubs annual car show for the past few years. We're not a huge show by any means, but we draw 150+ cars on average.

The organizer is right with the fact that there mosre than likely aren't enough cars to support 6 classes. We usually strive to have an average of 5+ cars in a class from year to year or it usually gets merged with another class. On the other hand if we get more than 15 cars in a single class we then try to further break out that class into more segments where possible.

So, by that logic if there were 20 contours at Carlisle it would stand to reason there would be 2 classes minimum as there currently is, but there could be room to add a 3rd class. I would say you'd have more luck suggesting 95-97, 98-00, and a 95-00 modified class. Basically once you get to modifying the car, it doesn't matter the base car nearly as much. If you want to respond to Lisa, I'd suggest this line of reasoning as it would be a lot easier for her to accept as 1 additional class in lieu of 3 additional classes.

Rick

I have to completely disagree with your thinking.

6 classes x 3 places = 18 awards

20 Contours were there. 18 out of 20 get awards? That's pretty lame IMHO.

In addition, IIRC, the first year I went there were over 30 Contours. Each year our attendance has dropped. So let's say 2006 thre might be less than 20. There might be more awards than cars. Makes no sense whatsoever.

There should be three classes:
95-97
98-00
SVT
9 awards = almost 1/2 get awards

What we need to do is make sure that everyone parks in the appropriate section for judging purposes.

Originally posted by SVT PETE:
I have to completely disagree with your thinking.

6 classes x 3 places = 18 awards

20 Contours were there. 18 out of 20 get awards? That's pretty lame IMHO.

In addition, IIRC, the first year I went there were over 30 Contours. Each year our attendance has dropped. So let's say 2006 thre might be less than 20. There might be more awards than cars. Makes no sense whatsoever.

There should be three classes:
95-97
98-00
SVT
9 awards = almost 1/2 get awards

What we need to do is make sure that everyone parks in the appropriate section for judging purposes.

your last part about 9 awards=almost 1/2 get awards, if thats the focus, then go to cruise-ins and top 30/40 shows, bigger shows will only cater to the "show" vehicles. we do try to keep everyone happy, but you can only go so far. there is nothing wrong with sticking the SVT class with the 98-00 class, just make sure the judge knows the difference between an SVT and a standard Contour 98-00. There are more than enough Integras from 91-04 at ITB, but they are broke down into 3 classes, based on modifications to the car, so you are ultimately placed in Mild/Wild/Extreme. Get the attendance back up and make the vehicles show presentable and you will see better break-down of classes. remember, more attandence=more money to do more things(buy trophies).

Originally posted by LCraze777:
your last part about 9 awards=almost 1/2 get awards, if thats the focus, then go to cruise-ins and top 30/40 shows, bigger shows will only cater to the "show" vehicles.

I could care less about awards.

Originally posted by LCraze777:
there is nothing wrong with sticking the SVT class with the 98-00 class, just make sure the judge knows the difference between an SVT and a standard Contour 98-00.

This makes zero sense.

You're saying put 98-00 with SVTs, yet the they are judged differently? It would be hard to tell the thousands of judges which are Contours and which are SVTs.

Originally posted by SVT PETE:

Originally posted by LCraze777:
your last part about 9 awards=almost 1/2 get awards, if thats the focus, then go to cruise-ins and top 30/40 shows, bigger shows will only cater to the "show" vehicles.

I could care less about awards.

Originally posted by LCraze777:
there is nothing wrong with sticking the SVT class with the 98-00 class, just make sure the judge knows the difference between an SVT and a standard Contour 98-00.

This makes zero sense.

You're saying put 98-00 with SVTs, yet the they are judged differently? It would be hard to tell the thousands of judges which are Contours and which are SVTs.

if you dont care about awards, thats fine, but there are alot of people that do and they take it seriously, those are the ones at big shows, top 40, cruise-ins, etc.

im not saying to judge SVT's any differently than your standard SE, but to understand that when an SVT was in production, it had a few different things on it than your standard contour. I guess I look at it from the stand point(and seeing it more and more at big shows) that at ITB, we have 2 truck judges and 3 car judges, and each judge is assigned specifice cars/trucks based on what that person knows. we have one judge that part of his judging is BMW's, Audi's, etc., me and the other car judge do not judge those vehicles as are knowledge on them isnt as great as our 3rd judge. it keeps consistancy. you can do it either way, but if there isnt gonna be enough SVT's at a show, they wont break it down any further.

Originally posted by LCraze777:
if you dont care about awards, thats fine, but there are alot of people that do and they take it seriously, those are the ones at big shows, top 40, cruise-ins, etc.

Again, makes no sense.

What you are saying is "Let's have more awards so people who want them get them" - an "I didn't win first so let's make it easier" attitude. What's the value of the award then? IMO - nothing. Awards should be hard to get - an award for effort/maintenance/work well done, not purely for the sake of getting one.

In addition, from what I could tell, the almost all the CEGers at Carlisle could care less about the awards.

Originally posted by SVT PETE:

Originally posted by LCraze777:
if you dont care about awards, thats fine, but there are alot of people that do and they take it seriously, those are the ones at big shows, top 40, cruise-ins, etc.

Again, makes no sense.

What you are saying is "Let's have more awards so people who want them get them" - an "I didn't win first so let's make it easier" attitude. What's the value of the award then? IMO - nothing. Awards should be hard to get - an award for effort/maintenance/work well done, not purely for the sake of getting one.

In addition, from what I could tell, the almost all the CEGers at Carlisle could care less about the awards.

i couldnt agree with you more with your statement on awards being hard to get-an award for effort/maintenance/work well done. I enjoy getting a trophy cause it shows my effort in my car, but if i dont get one, then fine, im in the sport to hang out with my friends, my other people, show off my ideas(my car) and learn new things people have done. i was mearly stating that attendance goes up, the profit goes up, and allows for more classes and opportunities for people to place in their class. the original post states that he feels that CEG'ers could have possibly won if the class was broken down more. granted, maybe not all cared about a trophy, but he did and i was stating why i thought there wasnt a better break-down of classes.

Originally posted by LCraze777:
i couldnt agree with you more with your statement on awards being hard to get-an award for effort/maintenance/work well done.

I enjoy getting a trophy cause it shows my effort in my car, but if i dont get one, then fine im in the sport to hang out with my friends, my other people, show off my ideas(my car) and learn new things people have done.

Agreed.

Lets just go down to one award. Just call it contour and leave it at that.

I see nothing wrong with either modded/non-modded or SVT/non-SVT classing (I think it was SVT/non SVT this year?)

All the awards are peoples choice awards no real judges there IIRC.

I (who is not a car show person) don't see anything wrong with the current classing. I don't see a real reason to break out the pre-98 contours. I think it is a little different look but some people like it more some less.

Last year when I went my car was "totaled" and I had a red rear bumper on the silver car. I went to have fun and hang out with CEG. I knew I had no chance at awards I just went to bring up the numbers. Even if my car was not totaled I was not there for awards (just ask pete about my paint). I did not even know they had awards there until I got handed my voting sheet on the way in.

My whole take on "trophies" is that if it is something you can use great but if it is just a medal/trophy I see no use for it and I already have to many packed away in boxes from other things I have done. I am getting a nice collection of glasses/mugs from AutoX now but at least I can use those.

Originally posted by SVT PETE:
I have to completely disagree with your thinking.

6 classes x 3 places = 18 awards

20 Contours were there. 18 out of 20 get awards? That's pretty lame IMHO.

There should be three classes:
95-97
98-00
SVT
9 awards = almost 1/2 get awards

What we need to do is make sure that everyone parks in the appropriate section for judging purposes.

I'll have to agree with this, and also with the 3 classes idea. That makes more sense since our participation in meets, cruises, etc, seems to be dwindling.

As far as awards are concerned: I don't really believe people "don't care". I do care and it's nice to be recognized BUT it's overall just as important to be able to have fun and hang with friends, fellow enthusiastics, car people--whatever you want to call it. I look forward to the meets just to be able to see people and cars again. But face it, the occasional trophy or plaque is nice too. Who doesn't like to hear positive comments about their rides? The whole purpose of my posting this was to see if others agreed with me as far as having more than 2 classes. Granted, we don't represent like alot of the other classes but IIRC, we're the only one with just 2 classes.

3 classes sounds reasonable, and something they shouldnt really have a problem accomidating...

A little FYI - This was the first year that our attendance at the Fords at Carlisle show has dropped since I've been attending it & organising our meets there . IIRC , in '98 I was the only Contique there . Since then , it's grown bit by bit especially in the last few years . In '01 , we had about 15 cars , that grew to about 20 cars in '02 and up to 25+ in '03 . In '04 , we had over 30 cars . Yes , this year it dropped a bit to 25 people registered . Will it go back up ?? Who knows ?? My fingers are crossed , but I'm not holding my breath .

Our current "Contour" classes are :
Contour& Mercury Mystiques
Contour SVT

It would be nice to have a "Contour/Mystique - Modified" class for those who have heavily modified cars , like Tom (way2tuff) and Chris (tour96se) for example . Maybe that would be enough ? A big step would be to park in the correct classes we have