New (old) 3L rebuild

[Heywood]

I have posted a couple of times with questions in preparation for my build, but this is the real deal now.
Here are a couple of warm up pics:







The last order I need to place is for a new oil pump and gaskets and bolts etc from ford - and then machining before reassembly.

A pic of the failure:




I am cleaning up the heads at the moment and there is some pitting within the bore that concerns me a little. Anyone care to comment on whether this is anything to worry about. I will probably have them decked but I don't think there's much material to come off.

 

[Heywood]

I also bought one of these disconnects from Summit, planning to put it in the windscreen cowl on the drivers side, but when I removed it I saw its not going to fit by a long way because of the windscreen wiper mechanism. Anyone got any suggestions for how to use it? It would fit on the passenger side but thats not really that useful if I'm in the car.

 

[wantsansvt]

hmmm looks interesting, are you going FI?

 

[Heywood]

No it'll be all motor. Pistons should bump compression with a 6cc dome.

 

[blu_fuz]

Excellent . I'll be watching.

 

[TourEnvy]

How about through the rear reflector?

 

[Beans]

Or through the antenna hole.

 

[gorman]

there is some pitting within the bore that concerns me a little. Anyone care to comment on whether this is anything to worry about.

Any pitting in the bore that is not cleaned up by honing may require you to have the cylinder re-sleeved. Pitting in the heads may create hot spots that will increase the chance of pre-ignition and pitting in the cylinder may cause the early failiure of the piston rings.

After professional advice, I had a cylinder re-sleeved with an engine I bought for parts. ... G.

 

[Heywood]

How about through the rear reflector?

Or through the antenna hole.

It is supposed to be accessible from the drivers seat as well as for corner workers.

Any pitting in the bore that is not cleaned up by honing may require you to have the cylinder re-sleeved. Pitting in the heads may create hot spots that will increase the chance of pre-ignition and pitting in the cylinder may cause the early failiure of the piston rings.

After professional advice, I had a cylinder re-sleeved with an engine I bought for parts. ... G.

The cylinders are OK and will be bored and honed. I didn't explain myself well there - I meant within the footprint of the cylinder on the head. Its the head that I'm worried about. I don't know that there's enough material to completely remove the pitting by decking it. Is it possible to remove a bit of material on the flat portion of the head only. I guess you'd end up with uneven compression across the cylinders.

I'm hesitant to just scrap the heads because the porting is very nicely done with the old injector valleys welded up.

 

[gorman]

I think you are right about uneven compression/ combustion if you grind locally.

I would say whatever you do to one cylinder, would be best done, to all the cylinders.

You should take out the valves, so that the head can be properly inspected for damage by your machine shop. They will look for how deep the pitting is and know what the maximum amount the head can be decked.

It's very difficult to be 100% sure by looking at photo's .... can't beat having the item in your hand .... G.

 

[Heywood]

Yeah, I'll take it to my machinist the next couple of weeks and see what he says.

I have been going back and forth on removing the valves - I guess you just convinced me. Do the seals need to be replaced after removing the valves?

 

[gorman]

would it be best practice .... yes

not sure how much you can source a gasket service kit for ... but considering the money you are spending on machining, it would probably be a false economy to re-use old seals and gaskets ... G.

 

[Heywood]

Next couple of weeks - ha - this is turning into a CSVT49 build minus the awesome.

Machinist said he can deck the head to remove pitting, but it might affect compression and upset the angle of the valves w.r.t the piston domes. He suggested finding a thicker head gasket to compensate. Alternatively, he can weld over the pitting and then deck it - but he was concerned about the valve seats.

As for valves - apparently if you change valves you need to resurface the seats at the same time. And while doing the valves you might as well do springs and retainers.

Where this leads me is that I think I am going to clean up my current valves for now and do the minimum head work to get a safely running motor. Once its up I will source some new heads and port and polish and upgrade the whole valve train. Machinist was against this because it means pulling the engine again, but if I try and fix everything before I put this together no one will be driving cars with internal combustion engines anymore.

Parts at the shop for:
line hone main journals
polish crank
bore/hone cylinders
deck block
balance rotating assembly

 

[gorman]

...... he was concerned about the valve seats.

he is right to be.... after that piston failure, chances are, the valve seat is pitted from fragments of the piston. You should, as a minimum, remove the valves on that cylinder and have them checked.

...... As for valves - apparently if you change valves you need to resurface the seats at the same time.

correct... it is a must.

...... And while doing the valves you might as well do springs and retainers.

could, but if they are undamaged not absolutely necessary.

...... Where this leads me is that I think I am going to clean up my current valves for now and do the minimum head work to get a safely running motor. Once its up I will source some new heads and port and polish and upgrade the whole valve train. Machinist was against this because it means pulling the engine again, but if I try and fix everything before I put this together no one will be driving cars with internal combustion engines anymore.

tut tut tut, your impatience and frustration could end up going thru the roof along with your re-build costs.

If it were me, (and is what i've done) i would use a cheap engine to get my car mobile and not hastily rebuild that failed engine. ... G.

 

[Heywood]

he is right to be.... after that piston failure, chances are, the valve seat is pitted from fragments of the piston. You should, as a minimum, remove the valves on that cylinder and have them checked.

Concern was that welding near the seat might reduce the pressure holding the seat in place. I removed the valves and they will clean up just fine.

There is some very fine pitting on the valve seat and back of the valve. He mentioned this would reduce compression by allowing some leakage but to me this seems like a last 10% of performance type issue - am I wrong?

 

[Heywood]

Also on the valve seats - he said that he would rather start with a new set of heads than replace the valve seats because the factory install gets more than twice the fit pressure of a machine shop.
Factory install - hot block and liquid nitrogen cooled seats pressed in by robot.
Shop install - less temperature control and hand pressed.

 

[gorman]

There is some very fine pitting on the valve seat and back of the valve. He mentioned this would reduce compression by allowing some leakage but to me this seems like a last 10% of performance type issue - am I wrong?

you want to run an engine with one cylinder at -10%. A condition that is only likely to get worse.... that's the impatience and frustration talking. You know better than that.

I'm in a similar position. I have a 3.0L engine waiting to be built. I will buy the right parts and pay for the machining or not at all... that is where i'm coming from.... G.

 

[Heywood]

Actually - we were looking at one of the other cylinders - It looked like normal wear to me. Other than a couple of marks in the head (to be repaired), scoring in the oil pump (to be replaced) and marks on the cylinder wall (to be bored/honed), there is minimal visible damage from the failure.

If I am going to redo the valve train this will run close to another $1k (if not more) and car will be down for another year.

At this point I am starting to regret going the upgrade route instead of getting another cheap 3L and banging it in. I'd be driving by now! (That's frustration talking !)

 

[gorman]

you know that having the upgraded engine is going to be awesome.

Everyone has setbacks in their build. My car has been in the garage 3 years and so have other guys cars.

When i get to drive the Vortec am i gonna regret the last 3 years ?? Hell no ..... G.

 

[Heywood]

I am building this car for the track. I know that a racer would always say to take track time over a fancy engine - especially with my limited track experience. I miscalculated the funds I'd have available for this or I would have gone with a stock replacement and then built a new engine on the side, as you are doing.

So my priority is getting this car running and make it to the track this year. I will do anything that needs to be done so as not to ruin the pistons/rods. At this point I think that means doing everything on the shortblock and worrying about the heads when funds permit.