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Odd No Start

M

Matty K

Hard-core CEG'er
Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Messages
1,192
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA
Ok, so, we replaced a lot of stuff on my car, alternator, battery, the whole crap-ton... except the starter. Now I'm wondering if we should have. The mechanic drove the car last week, everything was great. This week, I come over to work on the car, and it won't start at all. The pump primes, all the correct lights come on, etc, but it won't even attempt cranking. So, we take off the battery cables, charge the battery, reconnect the cables, and we try it again. Still nothing; no cranking, nothing. All the voltage going into the starter reads correctly.

So, here's the only warning I've ever gotten. Sometimes, particularly after driving for a while, the car would exhibit these same symptoms. Usually though, I could just take the key out, put it back in, and the car would start right up. I had to wait about 2 minutes once, but that's it. So, I'm stumped.
 
MIne does the same thing sometimes.... just randomly. I will be driving and poof... it just dies. If I jiggle the wire distribution box, it will start back up. I was thinking for a while that it has something to do with the cables going from the battery terminasl to the distribution box and to the starter etc.... One weird thing that I have noticed is that when it does while I am driving, the l.e.d. for the alarm comes on.... Makes me think that it has nothing to do with the starter because the car is already started. It has to be a short somewhere though.... outside temp, operational temp, humidity, speed, direction (forward / reverse / hard turns), has no affect on when this occurs. It has been driving me crazy for a few months now. I was thinking that it might be the kill on my alarm just engaging when it feels like it, in which case I was going to have a new alarm installed, but if anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears! First time it happened I had AAA tow it to a garage and they were like "the battery terminal had corrosion on it, and we replaced the starter relay" Then when I went to pick it up from the garage it wouldn't start in the parking lot... that was where I learned the old distribution box jiggle trick. I took it all aprt and looked in there and could see no obvious sign of a short.... No insulation chipping away... No rigged cable connections... no black scorch marks. grrrrrrrrrrrr.
 
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Matty K said:
..

It might be that little black starter wire.....
Click to expand...

Yes. Or it could the negative battery cable which goes under the battery tray. The other two items could be the ignition switch/lock and/or for those with the PATS system, it could just be that too.
 
My PATS is f'd... a previous owner installed some crazy alarm that bypassed it, then the second owner took that alarm out. So, the PATS works.... but doesnt. It doesn't light up or flash, and it won't program a key the way its supposed to, but back when I tried to start it with a duplicate key (cut but not programmed), it would crank and not fire. Sigh....

Anyhow, I'm thinking starter wire and battery ground first, and then ignition switch. Are there any common problems with the ignition switch?
 
Alright, so, so far....

The black wire has good continuity, but doesn't recieve any power.

We jumped the starter, and it spun, but didn't engage the engine.


....Relay, maybe? Bad solenoid?
 
New nightmare...

With the key on, 12v goes into the fuse box under the hood. No power makes it to the solenoid wire. The relay is good.

Internal problem?
 
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Matty K said:
New nightmare...

With the key on, 12v goes into the fuse box under the hood. No power makes it to the solenoid wire. ...?
Click to expand...
This doesn't not necessarily mean anything is wrong. What happens when you turn the key to start?
 
Absolutely nothing. You can hear the pump prime when the key is half-turned (though it's a short prime, it should be more than sufficient), and when you turn the key all the way ahead, all the gauges drop to zero... and that's it. No clicking, no nothing, it doesn't even attempt starting. The black wire still gets no juice.

I'm wondering if PATS is sudedenly telling the car it can't start, as apparently the ECU provides the main box with a ground, and it's not doing that. We've pretty much narrowed it down to something to do with the ECU, maybe a bad connection or something, maybe PATS. Can you replace the whole PATS unit?
 
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Matty K said:
Absolutely nothing. You can hear the pump prime when the key is half-turned (though it's a short prime, it should be more than sufficient), and when you turn the key all the way ahead, all the gauges drop to zero... and that's it. No clicking, no nothing, it doesn't even attempt starting. The black wire still gets no juice.

I'm wondering if PATS is sudedenly telling the car it can't start, as apparently the ECU provides the main box with a ground, and it's not doing that. We've pretty much narrowed it down to something to do with the ECU, maybe a bad connection or something, maybe PATS. Can you replace the whole PATS unit?
Click to expand...
I think this is due to a bad battery or wiring from battery to alternator or ground. You need to check/test those again.
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=3535

If you suspect it is an intermittent PATS issue, 9 times out of 10, disconnecting the battery for 1 minute or so will reset it and the car should start.

http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=3535
 
Tony2005 said:
I think this is due to a bad battery or wiring from battery to alternator or ground. You need to check/test those again.
Click to expand...

We've looked into all that, but will check it again. I should mention the alternator and battery are brand new.

Here's the thing with my PATS: I don't even know if it works. A previous owner had some kind of alarm that went around it, but that was removed before I got the car (I only found the motion sensor, and the wires led to nowhere). As it stands, the light never flashes, and I can't program a key; I tried once, and it wouldn't work. The duplicate key would crank the car, but it wouldn't turn over; now it won't even crank.

Going over Ford wiring schematics, and testing connections, it seems like the signal drops at either the PCM or what's labelled DL-Fuel, or it might be D1-Fuel... we have no idea what that is (it's between the PCM and the clutch switch in the diagrams). For what it's worth, when the car had warm start problems, you would only hear the pump prime a short time, like it's doing now; whenever the car would start, it would be a long prime. So maybe it is fuel related....?

Anyhow, supposing it is PATS related, I have a few questions:

1. On a 98 SVT, can the PATS unit be replaced? Where is it?

2. Can PATS keys go bad? Has anyone ever had that happen?

Edit: Just talked to the mechanic. He's checked that alt wiring and it's all good. Also, his battery charger/tester tests for bad cells and inability to charge, and my battery is all good. From here, we're thinking of trying a push start to see if PATS is functioning right or not (if it is, we should be able to start and drive the car), and also bypassing the starter relay, as that's where power's going in and not out (fusing that wire, of course, to avoid frying anything). So, we'll see.
 
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Matty K said:
.... From here, we're thinking of trying a push start to see if PATS is functioning right or not (if it is, we should be able to start and drive the car), ...
Click to expand...
Don't need to.


Tony2005 said:
..If you suspect it is an intermittent PATS issue, 9 times out of 10, disconnecting the battery for 1 minute or so will reset it and the car should start.
Click to expand...
 
I would like to make a suggestion:

Had a no start a few days ago, and all I had to do....

  1. put the ignition to 'on' but not start the car
  2. apply brake
  3. move gear selector from park to drive, then back to park
  4. turn key to start.
I have an auto - obviously, if you do as well, try that to make sure the cutoff switch for the selector lever is not activated.
 
DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING.

We, uh, bypassed the starter relay in the main fuse panel, and lo and behold, it cranks (but doesn't fire). So, all battery cables are good, as stated. That pretty much narrows it down to the PATS system (everything electrical is fine, but there's no signal for fuel or starting). What I've learned from research, and harassing Bill Jenkins, is that:

1) PATS keys can go bad
2) The PATS system can totally forget its code; so disconnecting the battery won't help
3) The transponder in the steering column can go bad, though it's fairly rare.

And, as stated before, my PATS light has never worked (didn't even when the car was running), so it becomes hard to diagnose what's not reading. Ford can program in new codes using a NGS, and it looks like I'll end up towing it over there for them to scan. Figures I get the bizarre problems...
 
While back in my old corolla my engine would die sometimes like yours. Turned out to be a loose grounding wire. I am not suggesting that is your problem, but your situation just reminded me of my incident. I wont go into details, but fixing it was an ordeal.
 
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