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0w-30???

FunInNorthDakota said:
lol that's okay anyways, both the manuals I have don't specify different oil under different temperature conditions. They just say use 5w30 certified by API for use in gasoline engines.
YAY really specific there, so apparently Ford engineers build these engines aimed towards the average consumer who is just gonna grab whatever off the shelf as long as it looks like it has the same numbers the cap says to put in it. Go figure...
Anyways, I would still stand by what I said earlier, just put 5w30 in your car and change your oil regularly and your lubricated parts will last a long time, notwithstanding other failures. Adding 0w30 is probably silly for most contour drivers since their engines by this time have a considerable number of miles on them and they would be more worn than a new engine. This means it would lead to more oil consumption at higher temperatures.
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Obviously you don't understand what the 0W30 vs 5W30 means.

They are both the same thickness at higher temperatures. 0W is thinner at COLD temperatures than 5W.
 
viscosity not thickness. and yes I do understand the difference. obviously you dont understand that as your engine gets more miles on it parts get worn. Lower oil viscosities at cold temperatures can cause increased oil burning leaks and your pump may not be able to move it as easily. If you are in extremely cold weather then a 0w30 may be fine, but, I have been running 5w20 in my motor since I put it in 2 years ago, it has 35,000 miles on it, and I lived in north dakota. In -25 and -35 (before the windchill)weather it started just fine, and had plenty of oil pressure shortly after startup. I do not have an oil heater on my car, it is always parked outside and sometimes I even forget to plug it in. Only reason it starts some days is cause of the red top. anyways I digress, my point is, you dont need to use 0w30. You are only asking for problems on a worn engine. when I say at higher temperatures I dont mean operating temperature, I just meant higher cold temperatures. I guess I shouldnt get to pissed since when I am talking about cold, I mean upper midwest kind of cold, not california cold.

now do you wish to continue trying to turn this into a flame war?
 
FunInNorthDakota said:
viscosity not thickness. and yes I do understand the difference. obviously you dont understand that as your engine gets more miles on it parts get worn. Lower oil viscosities at cold temperatures can cause increased oil burning leaks and your pump may not be able to move it as easily. If you are in extremely cold weather then a 0w30 may be fine, but, I have been running 5w20 in my motor since I put it in 2 years ago, it has 35,000 miles on it, and I lived in north dakota. In -25 and -35 (before the windchill)weather it started just fine, and had plenty of oil pressure shortly after startup. I do not have an oil heater on my car, it is always parked outside and sometimes I even forget to plug it in. Only reason it starts some days is cause of the red top. anyways I digress, my point is, you dont need to use 0w30. You are only asking for problems on a worn engine. when I say at higher temperatures I dont mean operating temperature, I just meant higher cold temperatures. I guess I shouldnt get to pissed since when I am talking about cold, I mean upper midwest kind of cold, not california cold.

now do you wish to continue trying to turn this into a flame war?
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Flame war not intended.

Please explain what you feel the difference between thickness and viscosity is. My understanding is that viscosity is a measure of thickness.
 
FunInNorthDakota said:
... Lower oil viscosities at cold temperatures can cause increased oil burning leaks and your pump may not be able to move it as easily. ...
Click to expand...

A lower # viscosity oil, at colder temps, would be easier on the oil pump and better for the engine.
 
no my point was on a worn engine. The impeller cannot push as much at a time (A higher viscosity does not deform as easily and therefore does not leak back). My point has and still is, why use oil that is lighter than the engine was designed to function with. The only reason to change oil weight would be going to 5w20 as per ford TSB. A 0 weight oil would only be useful in EXTREME cold. Its not real hard to push oil with the oil pump. you could put straight 50 weight in your motor and your oil pump wouldnt have trouble circulating the oil, you just wouldnt get adequate lubrication into bearing journals and whatnot. Oil pressure is generated by the oil meeting resistance, such as being forced through passageways and between bearings. Your oil pump is capable of pushing oil at higher pressures than your engine is designed to operate at.
Viscosity is a measure of the resistance of a fluid which is being deformed by either shear stress or extensional stress. Yes the terms are fairly interchangeable, but not completely. They are not the same word, so why would you use them the same. Besides, it would get confusing to people if you use 30 different terms to describe the same thing. Honestly, from someone who was nitpicking on the differences between group four and group three, I wouldn't think you would have much problem with this.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
About the author:
Dr. Haas is a physician and surgeon. He graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in biochemistry with honors. He studied motor oils since high school where he did independent studies on this topic. He studied the properties of viscosity.
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I've studied boobs since I was in gradeschool but that doesnt make me an expert.
I don't see an engineering degree
I don't see the credentials to qualify him as an expert
I don't see any credentials demonstrating his understanding of engine internals

His work can be taken on one level, that is a paper on the comparison of the thickness of different viscosity fluid at different temperature. Aside from that he lacks the credentials to speak on anything else.

I dont know if you noticed but he is guessing at "thickness" There are no scientific proofs or evidence in that paper, the paper is not falsifiable. If I turned in a paper like that in a 100 level physics class I would get a failing grade. The only part of his paper he supported with verifiable facts or research was telling us that there were different ratings for oil, ie. sj sl.

Anyways, thanks for the laugh
[/FONT]
 
I did read, see above, I edited my post after I put it up when I thought to myself that you would just think I skimmed the article and was discrediting it without reason. The overall concept is his best guess based on limited knowledge.

One thing you should take away from that paper is that he thinks since Ferrari recommends that he use 5w40 in the manual, then says 0w40 is ok for in town in his warmer climate if he doesnt use the car on the track, and 10w60 for hot climate conditions on the track. He is using this to base his assumption that using the lowest viscosity oil is best. According to him he should stick with the lowest weight at all times because he thinks that the other "recommended by ferrari" oils are going to reach to high a viscosity after sitting overnight.

Now the part I had actually keyed in on in that paper is that he decided that he guessed on something, and he assumes he is smart enough to make that guess since he is a doctor, and everyone knows doctors are the SMARTEST people on the face of the planet. No way an engineer from Ferrari would know more about cars or engines than a surgeon.... Seriously, your not talking about some company pumping out budget cars here, its Ferrari ffs. If their pedigree doesn't qualify them as experts, then I don't know what would.

Kinematic Viscosity in cSt of several Mobil 1 oils compared to the Red Line 5W-20:

T(C)* 0W30 * 5W30 * 10W30 * 0W20 * RL 5W20

-20° 1994.8 2225.1 3424.8 1712.7 2995.8
-10° 872.4 944.7 1332.9 730.8 1165.3
0° 428.3 452.9 595.7 352.8 521.4 (32 F)
10° 231.3 240.1 298.3 188.5 261.8
20° 135.3 138.3 164.1 109.5 144.5 (68 degrees F)
30° 84.6 85.5 97.6 68.3 86.3
40° 56.0 56.0 62.0 45.1 55.0 (104 degrees F)
50° 38.8 38.5 41.6 31.3 37.0
60° 28.1 27.7 29.2 22.6 26.1
70° 21.0 20.6 21.4 17.0 19.2 (158 degrees F)
80° 16.2 15.8 16.1 13.1 14.5
90° 12.8 12.4 12.5 10.4 11.3
100° 10.3 10.0 10.0 8.4 9.1 (212degrees F)
cP @ 150°C
HTHS 3.0 3.1 3.2 2.6 3.3

From: Lubrication, Tribology & Motorsport, R.I. Taylor
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So... According to this, your buddy is wrong. Notice there is not the HUGE difference in flowability he is insisting there would be at cold startup temperatures. Vehicles dont need as much flowability when they are not at operating temperatures. You are also failing to take into account another concept I havent mentioned. Thats thermal expansion. As your engine warms up, the tolerences between moving parts become smaller. This is because those parts expand under heat. Thats why your engine manufacturer recommends the oil it does. Engine designers and engineers take into account startup period and times when the engine is not running at operating temperatures when they design cars. Engines are run through an incredible gambit of stress tests. They do this because they want their engines to run well over a long period of time. Do you honestly believe that your buddy is the first guy in the history of engines and autosports to wonder about lubrication at startup? The one and only reason why lubrication is sometimes inadequate at startup is because oil flows down away from moving parts back into your oil pan. Thats why there are additives in your oil to make it CLING to parts better.
 
It pretty much parallels what I have learned from many other combined sources. It attempts to explain it in laymans terms.

What is valid is that oil is much too thick at cold temperatures. There is no oil that is too thin at start-up. In fact, it is all too thick.

I'm sorry that you let his layman's terms get in the way of understanding his concepts.
 
Before posting another link to more detailed writings, I found a disclaimer that helps explain why things may be "dumbed down".

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In responding to non-chemists and non-tribiologists, but intelligent people none-the-less, one has to bring the duscussion to the level of the "best analogy" that imparts the basic meaning and this is one reason for that type of response. You're going to lose the vast majority of readers if you explain everything in pure tribochemical terms."[/FONT]

You might, or you might not, find something written more to your level here at the BOBISTHEOILGUY whhite paper forum The links to some of the more interesting and detailed topics are broken or the linked postings are no longer available but there is still a great deal of deeper insight here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=53&page=1
 
sorry I actually edited my last post and it took me a while so I didnt notice you responded. See above

and once again. I am not against his paper just because of the use of laymans terms, I am against it because it is wrong. The paper is his best guess based on guessing. There is no. I repeat NO backing for any of his ideas. He does not back his ideas with any research. He just uses something he has heard before and tries to fill in the blanks with something that sounds like a well researched idea.
 
This is what my grandmothers owners manual says for her 96 escort

Engine oils with an SAE 5W-30 viscosity are
PREFERRED for your vehicle. They provide the
best engine performance, fuel economy and
engine protection for all climates down to -15°F
(-25°C).
Click to expand...

My old 92 escort had a chart in the owners manual, which recommended 5w30 at lower temperatures, but there was a cutoff, and in average outside temperatures above 80f they wanted you to only use 10w30.

Now, why would ford say that 5w30 is to light an oil above 80?

Porshe recommends 5w30 and says straight out that 0w30 is to light an oil to use.

Do you have a scientific reason why those engineers are WRONG? Do you have any mathematical proofs. Like I said earlier, engines dont require as much flowability at low temperatures due to thermal expansion. The colder it is, the larger tolerances there are between moving parts.
 
Do keep in mind the oils back in 92 and 96 arent the oils we're using today. Oils came a long way with the SL/SM ratings which really helps with their protection levels. The days of manufacturers listing 10 different outdoor temp guidelines for oil weights are long gone because a 5w-30 will give you all the protection you need while still being thin enough to conserve energy and help engine efficiency.
 
yeah I know. I was just trying to ask him, why if lower weight oils are available do manufacturers recommend higher weight oils? Companies like ferrari and porshe know what they are talking about when it comes to engines. Ford has been building engines for a long time, including very high performance race engines. Remember back in the day Ford was spanking all the italians and germans with the GT40. My point was that there is a slim possibility that the engineers that work for these companies, and mechanics that work for those companies, might know just slightly more than a surgeon who has done no real research, just kinda plugged in some numbers he made up to justify his position. If there is no real mathematical and scientific data to justify an opinion then it is not a fact. And I am going to recommend against anyone doing something based on uneducated hunches instead of going along with hard scientific and mathematical data that engineers use. It's not like these guys are just slapping together parts and putting an emblem on it. I had a chevy pickup with 380,000 miles on it before my brakes failed and I totalled it after it rolled down a hill into heavy traffic. That engine had 10w30 run in it its entire life. it leaked a bit and I had to replace a gasket here and there, but I never did anything to the internals.
 
switching to 5w20 is in a TSB from ford. I use that in my engine, because its a fairly new engine anyways. I dont care what you post, but I am gonna advise anyone against listening to it unless it is backed by a real reason and proof.
What analogies? I just didnt like his guesses that had nothing to do with reality.
 
if you look back to my last post on the last page, I posted a chart for the oil in centistrokes. Several mobil 1 oils and redline 5w20. You can see from that that his guesses are really far from the truth

lets compare some real quick
-4F -20Cs 0w30 1994.8 5w30 2225.1 10w30 3424.8
32F 0C 0w30 428.3 5w30 452.9 10w30 595.7
68F 20C 0w30 135.3 5w30 138.3 10w30 164.1
86F 30C 0w30 84.6 5w30 85.5 10w30 97.6
104F 40C 0w30 56.0 5w30 56.0 10w30 62.0
212F 100C 0w30 10.3 5w30 10.0 10w30 10.0

Thats for Mobile 1, but it is fairly close to representative of other oils which should be within 5% of these numbers
Now if I refer to his numbers he gets estimates at 100C Kinematic Viscosity in cSt at 100 C would be about 10 for both 0w30 and 10w30, which is about accurate. Although you will notice the 0w30 is actually slightly higher. Now at 75F he estimates the 0w30 to be about 40 and the 10w30 to be about 100. Now close to that temperature is about 68F you see the 0w30 is actually 135.3 and the 10w30 is 164.1, at 86F 0w30 is 84.6 and the 10w30 is 97.6. So you dont have the outrageously large differences he was alleging. In fact you can see the Kinematic Viscosity goes up much much faster than he had even guessed at.
I hope this clears up any confusion about how FAR off base he was

Now I would like to speak a bit about thermal expansion.

Now Aluminum has a coefficient of volume for thermal expansion of 69*10^-6. So lets plug that into our handy dandy formula dV=V0 β(t1-t0) and we find the change in volume of 1m^3 of aluminum is 0.0055m^3 so 5.5 cubic millimeters when it goes from 20c to 100c. So can you understand how thermal expansion has such a big effect on the need for lubrication. Of course most of the parts of an engine are smaller than 1 cubic meter. But if you use this formula and I had accurate numbers for the mass of various objects in an engine, I would be able to explain to you much more accurately the difference in mass, and therefore the difference in clearance between moving parts. However you follow this formula, and all things being equal, Thermal expansion keeps pace with the differences in centistrokes. Of course that is assuming an aluminum block and heads. Steel engine components are a little trickier, the coeffecient for expansion of steel depending on composition ranges from 33.0-39.0 *10^-6 which means a maximum change in volume of ~3 millimeters given the parameters earlier set for aluminum. This of course is much of the reasoning behind older engines requiring different viscosity oil under different temperature ranges. oh and if you want to go all the way to the cSt at the coldest I have data for of the oil, you will find the aluminum expands 8.3 millimeters between -20 and 100 Celsius now with parts with clearances in nanometers at operating temperatures, you can see what a difference that makes. of course all the parts are smaller, so you would find smaller changes in mass, but you get the general idea. even if you take 2 parts that are a centimeter and you have a clearance between the two of them of one nanometer at operating temperature, the clearance between the two parts becomes ~2.5 nanometers at 20c.
Now I also want to point out why his reasoning that you don't actually need oil pressure as long as you are sure that oil is circulating is wrong. Since he does infer that in his writings. Fluid will travel down the path of least resistance. without some resistance to flow, you would not be able to force the oil into the the tighter areas of your engine. This means while you may have plenty of oil flowing into your head to cool the cams, you might not develop enough pressure to force oil into the bearing journals on the crankshaft. This is why oil pressure is necessary. To much oil pressure forces oil through seals which is bad, to little oil pressure makes the oil not circulate into parts with smaller clearances.
I hope this clears things up a little bit. Also I hope you are happy for making me do physics on a sunday.
 
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