Tuning a 2000 w/ dealership equipment??

[NorMich99SE]

First off, I know tuning has been discussed quite a bit and I have read a decent amount of the talk in the archive stickies and done a few searches and I know NPG is probably the best way to go, but I'm looking for possible input on something most can't do. As some know, I work at a Ford dealership, and that's where my 3L will be installed (ported 3L by blackcoog, will have add'l port/polish work done on heads and will have headers when installed) and I know that the Ford "scan tool" the IDS has the capability to program certain parameters on some vehicles. What I'm looking for is if anyone can tell me just what readings would need to be tweaked so that this will be sort of base tuned if you will. I'm hoping to hook the IDS up and see if it allows changing of these on my car or not. Forgive me if this a dumb question, the electrical and tuning aspect of cars has never been a strong point of mine, I just don't have the money to buy something like an Xcal , and I figured if I can use my access to this stuff to get me some kind of a tune, why not?

 

[svt_cougar]

u need a dyno to proberly tune it

 

[beyondloadedSE]

u need a dyno to proberly tune it

While this would be ideal, its not a must. NPG does pretty well with mail order tunes.

 

[NorMich99SE]

but that requires getting an Xcal from them right? That's something I'll probably have to do eventually, but right now the cash just doesn't exist for it. I'm already stretched about as far as possible trying to get this engine together faster than originally planned, plus I've got a wedding in 2 months.

 

[Blackcoog]

I'd recommend skipping the tune for the time being. I've run quite a few 3L SVT's without tunes and I've never had an issue. The cars run fine. If you want to squeeze every last bit out then get a tune later on. Don't go broke trying to make it happen now though.

 

[beyondloadedSE]

but that requires getting an Xcal from them right? That's something I'll probably have to do eventually, but right now the cash just doesn't exist for it. I'm already stretched about as far as possible trying to get this engine together faster than originally planned, plus I've got a wedding in 2 months.

I believe if you can provide them a chip, they can tune that as well. You might want to ask.

 

[Barge]

I'd recommend skipping the tune for the time being. I've run quite a few 3L SVT's without tunes and I've never had an issue. The cars run fine. If you want to squeeze every last bit out then get a tune later on. Don't go broke trying to make it happen now though.

As long as you are running the same MAF and injectors as the ECU base program the car should run OK.

However the tune isn't just to "squeeze" out every last bit. All your load and timing calcs will be way off. The extreme safe nature of the stock tune and the fact that your load will be higher than a 2.5 (therefore running the lowest timing and the richest fuel) should keep things safe.

I would however, never recommend someone running a 3L with a 2.5L tune as a permanent solution.

 

[Blackcoog]

As long as you are running the same MAF and injectors as the ECU base program the car should run OK.

However the tune isn't just to "squeeze" out every last bit. All your load and timing calcs will be way off. The extreme safe nature of the stock tune and the fact that your load will be higher than a 2.5 (therefore running the lowest timing and the richest fuel) should keep things safe.

I would however, never recommend someone running a 3L with a 2.5L tune as a permanent solution.

All of the cars I've been running have been ported out 3L's with SVT injectors, SVT MAF, and ECU. I suppose it's never "recommended" to run any 3L with out a tune but from my experience they do run quite well without a tune. I've run untuned 3L SVT's for years and all on 87 octane without any knock.

 

[todras]

You can always pick up an old Apexi and lean it out. It's a cheater set up but it works.

 

[Barge]

All of the cars I've been running have been ported out 3L's with SVT injectors, SVT MAF, and ECU. I suppose it's never "recommended" to run any 3L with out a tune but from my experience they do run quite well without a tune. I've run untuned 3L SVT's for years and all on 87 octane without any knock.

You probably won't because say a 2.5L would be at a load cell of .9. If you put a 3L in and don't change the load calculation parameters all the sudden it's flowing more air and you end up with a load of 1.08. Which might be off the end of the chart. Which on a stock 2.5L is somewhere richer than 9.5 or 9 to 1 AFR I believe.

You're also running about the least timing the engine will see because you're load is lower than what the ECU thinks.

I'm not saying it won't work, I'd just rather not have newbie's come around thinking it's the "right" thing to do.

 

[rk2k2]

My conversion to 3.0 ran perfectly fine with the stock 2.5 tune. In fact, if I didn't know any better, I really wouldn't have known the tune wasn't for the engine. I only ran that way for a few weeks, but 2 days after getting the car back it passed California emmisions (all measurements at the BOTTOM of the scale).

I can't be absolutlely certain as I only ran 2 tanks of gas before the tune, but my combined MPG bumped from ~22.5 up to 24.5 combined. I have yet to drive any long distance highway miles to get a true idea on what sort of hwy milage I'm getting, but I ran my Scanguage during my commute and saw 'instantaneous' MPG on the flatter portions of road fluctuate between 27 and 31. Oddly enough, on cruise control at 65, it was reading 30-31 on one stretch of hwy, and I could SWEAR it was a slight upgrade (probably just one of those optical illusions- the road, not the reading!)

 

[SicSE]

NorMich99SE - I feel your pain and I'm in the same boat. I've been unable to turn up any real info on this topic. Fellow techs, former engineers, hotline help, all have had nothing to offer.

All your load and timing calcs will be way off.

Given the factory matched MAFS, injectors & PCM, how would the load & timing calcs be off? Sure, it would be seeing a higher load than it's used to, but as far as the PCM is concerned, the engine is just moving more air - the PCM should adjust fuel and timing accordingly. I could see your point about being "off the chart" if the MAFS was being pegged, or close to it, but from what I've read, our MAFS are maintaining accuracy to 4.5v. These swaps, which yield barely over 4.0v at WOT, max load, should still be in, or close enough to, the "sweet spot" of the MAFS's measuring parameters to not cause any issues. Especially since the Ford engineers that I've spoke with, want to see around 4v at WOT, max load for factory programming.

 

[BrApple]

but that requires getting an Xcal from them right? That's something I'll probably have to do eventually, but right now the cash just doesn't exist for it. I'm already stretched about as far as possible trying to get this engine together faster than originally planned, plus I've got a wedding in 2 months.

you can buy one on your own if you choose. I got mine from brenspeed off ebay. its a used unit but its basically brand new, just don't have a warrenty on it thats all.

 

[Barge]

Given the factory matched MAFS, injectors & PCM, how would the load & timing calcs be off? Sure, it would be seeing a higher load than it's used to, but as far as the PCM is concerned, the engine is just moving more air - the PCM should adjust fuel and timing accordingly. I could see your point about being "off the chart" if the MAFS was being pegged, or close to it, but from what I've read, our MAFS are maintaining accuracy to 4.5v. These swaps, which yield barely over 4.0v at WOT, max load, should still be in, or close enough to, the "sweet spot" of the MAFS's measuring parameters to not cause any issues. Especially since the Ford engineers that I've spoke with, want to see around 4v at WOT, max load for factory programming.

Because the ECU uses airflow and engine size to determine load. 3L engine flows more air than a 2.5L for the same "load".

 

[Redlineracer12]

I believe if you can provide them a chip, they can tune that as well. You might want to ask.

I was the one that did that with the chip I bought from you. Had it reflashed for my pcm code (cougar). I don't see why they couldn't do that again for a 3L tune. Was an extremely inexpensive way to get my Cougar decently tuned.

 

[PurpleMystique]

I ran my oval port 3.0 with the stock 2.5 tune for a couple weeks until Joey finally got me my tune, and it was definitely bogging down low, probably due to the lack of secondaries. Once I got the tune done, it ran much better.

If I had to do it over again, I'd definitely skip the mail order tune and get it done on a dyno. The cost isn't much different but the results would be much much better.

 

[Ray]

I ran my oval port 3.0 with the stock 2.5 tune for a couple weeks until Joey finally got me my tune, and it was definitely bogging down low, probably due to the lack of secondaries. Once I got the tune done, it ran much better.

If I had to do it over again, I'd definitely skip the mail order tune and get it done on a dyno. The cost isn't much different but the results would be much much better.

How do you know how much "better" it would be? I'm not exactly denying it could be, but I'm saying that if YOU have never had a dyno tuning session yourself, what do you have to compare it to? The NPG tunes are incredibly accurate, normally on the first time. If you can do a little road-testing, and use a laptop while you datatune, you can get even better than that.

 

[PurpleMystique]

How do you know how much "better" it would be? I'm not exactly denying it could be, but I'm saying that if YOU have never had a dyno tuning session yourself, what do you have to compare it to? The NPG tunes are incredibly accurate, normally on the first time. If you can do a little road-testing, and use a laptop while you datatune, you can get even better than that.

While warmonger's guesses based on mods are pretty good, I believe that there's no substitute for the tuner being right there and hitting the gas himself. There was definitely an improvement after uploading the tune (when Joey finally got me a version that worked, which took a couple weeks or so...) but for nearly $500 for the SCT and the "performance" tune, a dyno session would be a better choice.

I realize that not everyone has easy access to a dyno, so sometimes a mail order tune has to suffice. In any case, NPG's customer service has a long way to go. I've had numerous problems trying to communicate with them to get info or issues resolved.

 

[Ray]

I agree with you that a mail order tune (while it works) isn't as accurate as something done with "let me see what happens when" in mind. You can't do that by guessing. Now, like I said, you CAN do that with a datalog session or two.

Also, the cost of the SCT will pay dividends when you need to retune, as all you do is datalog afterwards and you don't have to go to a dyno again. Either way, I hope you get your customer service issues worked out for you.

 

[PurpleMystique]

I agree with you that a mail order tune (while it works) isn't as accurate as something done with "let me see what happens when" in mind. You can't do that by guessing. Now, like I said, you CAN do that with a datalog session or two.

When I posted my dyno sheet, Joey asked me to do some datalogging. I asked a couple questions regarding exactly how to do it, never heard back from him, and gave up on it. I was tired of feeling like I was pestering him every time I needed something.