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#407541 06/17/02 10:28 AM
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....who said there have to be intercoolers....'when you compress air it gets hot....not so good for an internal combustion engine...hence intercoolers.....


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..don't talk about it DO IT !!!
#407542 06/17/02 01:47 PM
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to add onto Terry's statement....have you not experienced a "Heat soak" problem with your duratec? Cause if not, I'd like to take a peek under your hood and copy some stuff!!


1999 Silver Frost SVT
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Born on 12/3/98

KKM Intake
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#407543 06/17/02 04:32 PM
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Terry Haines:
....who said there have to be intercoolers....'when you compress air it gets hot....not so good for an internal combustion engine...hence intercoolers.....

I could swear I've seen turbo setups without intercoolers... perhaps not. shocked

TheGreatOne:
to add onto Terry's statement....have you not experienced a "Heat soak" problem with your duratec? Cause if not, I'd like to take a peek under your hood and copy some stuff!!

I can't lie to ya. If I knew what heat soak was, I'd tell you if I had a problem with it. From the way you're talking, I probably do. [momentarily leaves to perform a search]

.RMk..


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Open K&N w/ heat shield.
#407544 06/18/02 08:03 PM
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The TT setup on the AUDI is phenominal. If I could afford it, that would be my next car, sooo smoooooth.

As far as the Duratec. Its already been said. Transverse mount makes it more difficult for piping and cooling, tight engine space, lack of dual TBs, and the fact that (hopefully) HPP will have a turbo out soon, makes it not worth attempting in my book. Besides, TT setup would not really give any more HP than a single T. You can only turn up the boost so far and I suspect the HPP turbo will be set between 6-10psi which is easily attainable by a single turbo of moderate size.

All this turbo talk is making me happy smile
BTW, Chris, any new updates? I can't wait to see the numbers!

Edit: Sorry Didn't see your post in the 5 page long thread, 5.5psi up,up, and away!

#407545 06/18/02 08:40 PM
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Sure it will fit. It will cost 10K and take 6 months. The 10k does not include the engine.

#407546 06/18/02 11:14 PM
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Quote:
GreenNuggs:
Besides, TT setup would not really give any more HP than a single T. You can only turn up the boost so far and I suspect the HPP turbo will be set between 6-10psi which is easily attainable by a single turbo of moderate size.
The idea behind this is not more power, it's better responsiveness. A single turbo is sometimes effective enough that the power kicks in around 2300-3200 RPM, but in this particular scenario, the turbos are ready to go around 1600 RPM, and in a CSVT, you're there in a hurry.

.RMk..


'99 SVT, Silver Frost
Open K&N w/ heat shield.
#407547 06/19/02 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RMk:

I could swear I've seen turbo setups without intercoolers... perhaps not.
There's also a little problem (difference) in compression ratios.

Stock non-intercooled turbo's normally have a 7:1 CR (or so)
The Duratec has a 9.7 to 10.25 CR

That's a disasterous difference!

Look at the S/C Duratec's. I've seen them lose 40 or more HP on just a hot day!!! That's not even taking into consideration any posible engine damage due to heat, detonation, etc...
IMO they too should use an intercooler...

RMK -

Why would you want power coming on at "say 1600rpm" when the engine doesn't come alive to around 2500-3200rpm anyway??? This engine's design (cams, intakes, head geometry) is not designed for that.
Not only that, but spending twice the money for it too

Building a turbo setup tailored to the engine's design parameters is by far the best way to extract the best and most reliable performance from it.


2000 SVT #674 - Check it out!

Whoever coined the phrase; "If it ain't broke; don't fix it" ~ Just doesn't get it...
#407548 06/19/02 10:45 AM
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Quote:
DemonSVT:
There's also a little problem (difference) in compression ratios. Stock non-intercooled turbo's normally have a 7:1 CR (or so)
The Duratec has a 9.7 to 10.25 CR. That's a disasterous difference!
Good point... laugh

Quote:
Look at the S/C Duratec's. I've seen them lose 40 or more HP on just a hot day!!! That's not even taking into consideration any posible engine damage due to heat, detonation, etc... IMO they too should use an intercooler...
...and I agree... but weren't we just saying it's impossible to fit an intercooler under the hood?

Quote:
Why would you want power coming on at "say 1600rpm" when the engine doesn't come alive to around 2500-3200rpm anyway??? This engine's design (cams, intakes, head geometry) is not designed for that. Not only that, but spending twice the money for it too. Building a turbo setup tailored to the engine's design parameters is by far the best way to extract the best and most reliable performance from it.
The only nuisance about this car is the lag at the low end, from 0-3400RPM. Getting rid of that is something I've been aiming at for a little while and with little or no autmotive engineering experience (all I really do is read books), this is virgin territory for me. laugh

I've been picking up things here and there on ways to eliminate the big, fat sag in everyone's dyno charts, but nothing comes as close as the turbocharger option... but that got me thinking. Turbos do need time to spool up (from what I've heard). Why not look around for setups that don't have this problem? So there I went: I spent at least 90 minutes looking for TC installs that don't need 6 seconds (give or take) to boost.

The Audi model turned out to be the best of them. I Know the space in the Contour/Cougar's engine bay is limited, but in the absence of two of the larger, removeable engine bay components (the battery and the coolant reservior), a small TC and it's intercooler could fit, one on either side and mate up to a custom UIM.

I understand that doing something like this requires all of the research and development that Chris Hightower and his development company have already taken care of, and in light of that, the premise of the original post was not to suggest that this kit be done, only to ask if it was a design that was possible and had it been considered. I thought I made that clear. Three times. :p

Anyways. I still believe the Biturbo route is the best way to go for "max boost" (as VW calls it wink ), getting the biggest bang-for-your-PSI. Whether or not a setup like this will fit under the hood of a CSVT remains to be seen. This entire thread is purely speculative, like many posts I've started (I have quite the imagination :rolleyes: ) and I started it to query the group as to what they knew about TCs... but that's not what I got back, to my surprise.

Most of it was criticism, which is expected to come in small doses, but not in every post. That lead me to believe that *cough* nobody understood the whole thing... but oh well. I will likely try again with another wild idea at some later time. wink

.RMk..


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#407549 06/19/02 07:34 PM
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RMk,

I think I understand what you are getting at, and I will offer my educated opinion on the matter.

First, I would like to clarify that Audi's "biturbo" setup isn't any different in concept than a common twin turbo setup for a V-type engine. The less common ones are the sequential setups, like those found in the turbocharged versions of the 3rd gen RX-7 and the last Supra. Sequential setups are good, and offer much better low-end boost response at the expense of high complexity, and the smaller turbo ends up choking things off a bit at higher rpm. Sequential setups are rarely, if ever, found in aftermarket installations.

In other words, this statement, is backward.

Quote:
The thing with the Noble is that it's another "traditional" style twin-turbo setup, in that it uses one turbo to spool up the other. It's not exactly the same thing.
The Noble does use a traditional style twin turbo, and so does the Audi, the one you describe for the Noble is actually a sequential setup, and is rarely used, but most notably as a stated above.

The Duratec 2.5 (and 3.0 for that matter) are in a unique situation, where the airflow requirements of the engine are such that a properly sized single turbo will work almost exactly the same as a properly sized twin turbo setup. This, coupled with the fact that there just plain isn't any room for a turbo on the rear cylinder bank (the engine and exhaust manifold back right up to the "firewall"), leads folks to the decision to use a single turbo.

No doubt that the Audi is a very good example of a well engineered OEM turbo setup, but the Audi design is considerably affected by several factors that are completely different from the contour situation. One major one is that the audi engine is mounted longitudinally, and not transverse like the contour, this gives them room to mount a turbo on each side of the engine. They also use two small intercoolers to make better use of the package space, while still providing adequate intercooling capacity, and not compromising the engine radiator's efficiency.

While on the subject of intercoolers, I must say that I do not recommend a turbo setup without proper intercooling. There is just no excuse for it. It invites dangerous detonation needlessly to skip doing a proper intercooler, especially on a higher CR application like the duratec. Mr. Hightower and his cohorts at street flight, realize this, and have addressed the issue w/ a nice water to air intercooler design (though the prototype is fugly, lol). Further, I think that most supercharged applications should be intercooled as well, even the vortech for the contour. Mr. Rowe made a band-aid attempt at covering this on his s/c'ed SVT by using a water/alcohol injection system (a band-aid solution at best, and Mr. Rowe fully realizes this) and met with some success, though he has been plagued by other problems.

I would also raise some doubt on your blanket statement that a twin turbo setup is always the best way for "max boost" even if only applied to the CSVT. There are many factors involved, not least of which being package issues, that drive the selection of a single turbo.
Other factors being things like cost, turbo availability (ie proper sizing for the application) complexity, and the minimal (if any) difference in performance between a good twin, and a good single.

Also, if I had a turbo car that took up to SIX SECONDS to make boost (like you state above) I would get rid of that setup as quickly as I could, or even the entire car.

Oh, and may I recommend the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell as a very good basic turbo book, that is heavily geared toward practical knowledge, and won't bend your brain around stuff that even engineers would have a hard time with.

Fwiw, I am in the process of putting together a minimal cost twin turbo setup for my 94 Mustang Cobra (still hunting for the proper turbos at a reasonable price). I also have some experience in the area of automotive engineering, as well as many, many friends, far more knowledgeable than I, that I pull information from on a regular basis on subjects like this. laugh
I love technical discussions laugh


It's all about balance.

bcphillips@peoplepc.com
#407550 06/27/02 12:46 AM
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you dont want lag....why not try www.aerocharger.com

their turbos are practically lag-less...if you ride around in a focus with that turbo(they make a kit for focus) ...youll swear its all motor.

also no where near as complex as a twin turbo, and these turbos dont need oil/coolant lines which adds to the simplicity


SVT coming soon...
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