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Originally posted by sigma:
Quote:
There's no getting around it, homosexuality is dead wrong from the Bible's viewpoint.
No, it's dead wrong from your interpretation of your Bible's viewpoint. I can find you just as many theologians that claim the Bible doesn't claim homosexuality is a sin as those that do.
Your Bible is not the Word of God. Your Bible is the Word translated and interpreted, depending on your particular version, potentially dozens of times. And each time passages are changed slightly to suit the times and/or are simply translated differently by different people. Read the Bible in Hebrew and it's not nearly as cut-and-dry a case as you would probably like it to be.
Eh, and that's your interpretation of today's Bible, sigma.
You have to give that some (including me) believe that the Bible is in fact the Divine Word of God.
And there can be no debate on what the Bible says about homosexuality:
Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Quote:
And if you want to go back to the origional written hebrew and interpret it your way, thats fine.
Did I say my way? No. I said that other theologians disagree with your interpretation.
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
I'll stick to the professionally translated scripts, any one of them, because I'm not an interpriter.
Bible translations were commissioned by politicians and translated in a way that they saw fit. Your "Word" is nothing more than a politically manipulated translation of a translation. It's like a game of "Telephone" (I think that's what we called it) where one person says something and they tell another, and they tell another, until the person at the end as an entirely different sentence than the one that started.
Quote:
EDIT: And tell me how your bible interprits Romans 1:26,27, or 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. It seems clear to me that the bible condemns homosexuality. Use whatever translation you want.
I'm glad that it's clear to you. And your interpretation is your right.
Romans 1:26 was written by Paul -- you and your Church undoubtedly ignores almost every command that Paul gave. Have you ever worn a hat? That's a sin according to Paul. Do your women speak in Church? Paul called that a sin too. Paul thought that slavery was a great institution. Why do you pick and choose which verses you want to follow and which you don't? Almost every passage referring to homosexuality as a sin (or at least could be read that way) was written by Paul. A man who is ignored in virtually everything else he proclaimed.
Paul also doesn't proclaim that homosexuality was a sin -- but that being "unnatural" and "lustful" were the sins. If one is born homosexual (argument of course) the sin is denying what oneself is and pretending to be heterosexual in direct opposition to the way that God made you. That is the sin.
And Corinthians 6:9? A perfect example of how translation can skew meanings. The translation you probably read explicitly says "homosexual" and "abusers of mankind".
Originally Paul used a word that means "soft" not "homosexual" or "effeminate" -- it's common usage was for a person born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Jews like Paul do not look kindly upon those who did not work for what they have.
And Paul's original Greek wording was not "abusers of mankind" but "abusers of young boys" -- Child Molestation.
It's amazing how two people can read something entirely different. That's not downing the Bible in any way. That is the hallmark of a great piece of literature upon which to base a country or relgion. Our own Constitution is exactly the same way.
You need to see "The Toymaker's Dream". Too many people blame the bad in the world on God, claiming He does nothing to stop it. Evil is not God's fault, Evil keeps us from God, because He will not violate His own Riteousness (SP?). It's man's folly to blame God for Evil....
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Originally posted by sigma:
...Romans 1:26 was written by Paul -- you and your Church undoubtedly ignores almost every command that Paul gave. Have you ever worn a hat? That's a sin according to Paul. Do your women speak in Church? Paul called that a sin too. Why do you pick and choose which verses you want to follow and which you don't?
Paul also doesn't proclaim that homosexuality was a sin -- but that being "unnatural" and "lustful" were the sins. If one is born homosexual (argument of course) the sin is denying what oneself is and pretending to be heterosexual in direct opposition to the way that God made you. That is the sin.
And Corinthians 6:9? A perfect example of how translation can skew meanings. The translation you probably read explicitly says "homosexual" and "abusers of mankind".
Originally Paul used a word that means "soft" not "homosexual" or "effeminate" -- it's common usage was for a person born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Jews like Paul do not look kindly upon those who did not work for what they have.
And Paul's original Greek wording was not "abusers of mankind" but "abusers of young boys" -- Child Molestation.
It's amazing how two people can read something entirely different. That's not downing the Bible in any way. That is the hallmark of a great piece of literature upon which to base a country or relgion. Our own Constitution is exactly the same way.
Bingo.
Paul is notoriously hard to decipher. His sermons to the Church of Corinth mainly pointed out the decadence and sin that Roman "orgy religions" took part in and blasted them for their OVERALL lifestyles.
The fact that many rip homosexuality from the texts and try to stand a biblically-supported moral argument against it is little different than some taking passages in the Old and New Testament to prop up slavery, an institution that was morally acceptable and practiced in Biblical times.
Fixating on single passages to the exception of the entire message being taught and the overall tone and message behind Christianity holds a fair amount of concern to me.
The Bible (IMHO) is FAR fom clear on homosexuality...
As it stands today, religiously, I'm torn on the morality of the practice. I've heard compelling arguments on both sides and haven't been able to bridge the two in my own mind.
As a citizen concerned about the welfare of fellow Americans and aware of the reasons why the seperation of church and state were established under the US Constitution, I fully support equal rights under law for homosexuals. Why? Because it's rampant discrimination to do otherwise.
I'll fight against "gay marraige" tooth and nail, but I fully support "civil unions" and would fight tooth and nail for them.
There is a middle-ground here, folks. It's just painfully obvious that the bulk of both sides are not currently capable or willing to try and reach for it.
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Originally posted by zgendron:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
Anyway, when the majority decides that gay marriage is acceptable (and I do believe that will happen one day, though I will continue to disagree with it), then the law will be changed. What I see right now is a minority group demanding that society at large bend to their will and allow them to defile one of the most sacred and heavily moral-based institutions. That is unacceptable.
And how is this any different than the rights for Blacks to vote, Segregation of the Schools, or Interacial Marriages?
All these were situations where a majority was against the idea.
I know, lets bring back the poll tax in those 11 southern states. That way the poor cannot vote either (aimed specifically at Blacks). And we can DENY them that right, because after all, they are different.
Are we supposed to just sit around and wait for the majority to be OK with it now? Comeon. As someone that stands to defend our country, how do you not see this as a Civil Rights issue???
Christian teaching has nothing about discriminating against Blacks etc etc..... If you think it teaches discrimination against women, then you need to read up on New Testament instructions to husband/wife. Those are the values I am speaking of. Was slavery wrong? Absolutely. Was sufferage wrong? Absolutely. Is homosexual marriage wrong? In my (and the majority) opinion, absolutely.
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Originally posted by daenku32:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
No, actually, i wasn't going to come back with anything. I just think it is very childish to say that someone who stands up for their morals and values, when based on religious teachings, can be nothing other than a puppet. It's a cop out when you (not you personally, freak) have no defense.
Why would anyone ever need to have a defense to religiously based arguments? Religion is purely personal and subjective. And no one is ever forced to accept a religious teachings as facts.
So then why would you suggest that those of faith are unable to think for themselves and use religion as a crutch? Seems to be bigoted to me.
While I think it's a very poor thing to say, I do consider it a vis-a-vis response.
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Just to be clear, I pretty much agree with Jato on this one. Call it whatever you want. Allow them their equal rights. But do NOT, under any circumstances, allow them to invade and defile the institution of marriage.
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
...Too many people blame the bad in the world on God, claiming He does nothing to stop it. Evil is not God's fault, Evil keeps us from God, because He will not violate His own Riteousness (SP?). It's man's folly to blame God for Evil....
If I may be so bold...
I've always held that God's design for mankind is perfect. I've also always held that mankind's interpretation of God's design has been shot to Hell and back; the mistakes that have been made in the name of religion (be it Christian, Judaism, Islam, etc.) are beyond count.
Some of the worst crimes against humanity have been facilitated by those with the most religious conviction.
I don't pretent to wish to change anyone's mind on how they view their religion; that is a personal choice and one I respect. What I would like changed is people's views on where religion (be it ANY religion) should be THE sole decider on who to and NOT to give common civil rights to.
It simply flies in the face of the principles that this country has stood for and stands for today.
"All men are created equal"
-Declaration of Independance
What it means and what it has strove to serve as is a definition of EQUAL rights to US citizens, regardless of their race, creed, color or religion and SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Bible translations were commissioned by politicians and translated in a way that they saw fit. Your "Word" is nothing more than a politically manipulated translation of a translation. It's like a game of "Telephone" (I think that's what we called it) where one person says something and they tell another, and they tell another, until the person at the end as an entirely different sentence than the one that started.
So let me understand you correctly, all bible translations are bull, and the one website you're copying and pasting from is right? Essentially, 1 website > all bible translations.
I'll stick to what the bible says. Any one of the many translations.
Where in the bible does Paul say you can't wear a hat? Or that women can't speak? I think somethings are being taken out of context or misapplied; and before you say the same of me, tell me how you can misapply or how removing those verses on homosexuality out of context has any change on what they say?
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the funny thing is, I have NO IDEA why they would push for legal marriage, just push for some rights like equal health insurance benefits for your significant other, etc.
marriage is such a conformist thing anyways, I think ANY guy would take living with a woman with the option of leaving without losing 50% of your assets. . .if gays do get to legally marry (for the record, I don't care one way or the other), they'll reach the 50%+ divorce rates like hets too. . .
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
Furthermore... your blanket statement that a dick belongs only in a [censored] stems from your belief that sex is a vessel meant only for procreation. So that means that every time you've had sex with someone and did not make the effort to have a child you went against your own rules on what sex is for.
Sex is not just a means of reproduction. It is a way of showing a partner that you care for them in the utmost level a human can show. It can also be a way someone degrades another human being by raping them or extorting them into the act. Before you point at another human and criticize them about how and why they have sex, take a look at yourself and the people around you and see if they're living up to your own standards.
Good job twisting that to fit your agenda. We'll just start calling you the spin-doctor.
sex is for fun, it feels good putting your dick other peoples orifices, can't we all just get along . . .
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