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Originally posted by DESIGN:
Marriage is not a civil right. It is not a right at all.




You are correct, marriage is not a civil right. However, excluding anyone from benefits granted to a group of people based on race, sex , color, religion or sexual orientation is discrimination and therefore infringment upon their rights and priviledges as a free and equal American.


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Originally posted by infuryum:
Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
...if they're trying to have something better for themselves, why stop them on the basis of their orientation?



Because the majority of people simply don't believe it's right.

I think being gay is wrong. I don't agree with it and I think it's gross. The people who are blatantly gay and want the world to know they're gay annoy me. But not all gay folks are like that. Some of them act normal. I have normal gay friends. [/cliche] I joke about them being gay and they joke about me being straight. I don't agree with what they do and it grosses me out, but that doesn't mean I don't like the people who they are.

I don't, however, think that my friends should be able to be in a gay marriage. This has nothing to do with descrimination or thinking I'm better than someone else. It has to do with the act of being gay and the act of being straight. They are DIFFERENT. Don't pretend they're the same because they are not. Don't push for straight rights for gay people because it won't happen until gay people are in a majority. It might be unfortunate and you might think it's wrong. But enough people disagree with you. I'm not crying in my beer because all eleven states voted against it. I wonder how the gay community would react if my future wife (see below) and I wanted to adopt an openly gay child. Oh, the sh*t storm that would ensue...




See but that's the point. It doesn't matter what you believe or not! The law has nothing to do with one person's belief over another. The law is supposed to be based on fact.

Fact: Killing someone is directly infringing upon their rights to live.

Fact: Stealing from someone directly infringes upon their rights to have things to themselves.

Your backwards thinking can't come up with a single factual reason besides your personal opinion that shows that gay people are wrong. And if the majority was allowed to create legislature solely on personal beliefs, black people would still be sitting in the back of the bus, Jewish people would still be having signs that say "Christ Killer" in their front lawns, and women would still be housewives and nothing more.

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One of the main problems is that extremists on BOTH sides of the argument have been allowed to put themselves in the position as "spokespersons" of one side or the other.

I am a Christian (well, I try to be one...), though I refuse to interpret passages in Romans, Genesis, and Corinthians as utter and irrefutable condemnations of homosexuals. I won't delve into the reasons why I believe thist, as it is another "War and Peace" post, but suffice to say that I don't see homosexuality as a one-way ticket to Hell, as so many fundamentalist of varying religious sects believe.

Slavery was practiced in Biblical times, Christian Kings kept harems, etc. Today these ancient establishments are considered morally reprehensible where they were morally acceptable during Biblical times. Are religious texts being two-faced about this?

Or were these cultural establishments that were formed outside of religious thought?




To extrapolate further, I have NO issue with homosexual unions and would greatly desire to have them see the light of day, with the same benefits and penalties that heterosexual marriage gives.

AT THE SAME TIME, I do take issue with a religious instition quite possibly forced to recognize marriages as something other than it has commonly held and for THOUSANDS of years and serves as a foundational institution and belief for them.

Federal law dictating what religions should and should not recognize (within reason) is JUST as wrong as religious institutions trying to force their beliefs on others through Federal law. Am I mandating that no chuches should have the option to not hold gay marriages? No.

This has nothing to do with Christian views, this has to do with VARIOUS religious commonly holding the that hold marriage as "one woman, one man".

Simply put, I despise the way both sides have approached this issue, as it has been rife will "all or nothing" verbage, tactics and ideology which is REALLY shortchanging any chance at getting a fair and equally agreeable solution created.

Religious fundamentalists piss me off on this just as much as extreme gay activists that would use Federal law to rabidly attack the church and it's beliefs. Again, from my view it's been the extremists on both sides that have ended up being the "spokespersons" and all they have helped do is further fan the flames instead of bridging a serious difference.

Any way you cut it, the civil rights of gays are being violated. IMHO, this is not in question. At the same time, violating the civil rights of the religious in turn isn't a solution, either.

There has to be a better solution than the one's that are being put in play today, but again, I'll be damned if I can coherently flush one out. It's a quagmire, no doubt about it.


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I agree. I also think religious groups shouldn't have to swallow what they don't want to.

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Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
I agree. I also think religious groups shouldn't have to swallow what they don't want to.




And they aren't forced to.

Even now they can refuse to marry any couple they want. Even if the couple can legally get married.


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JaTo wins.

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Originally posted by daenku32:
Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
I agree. I also think religious groups shouldn't have to swallow what they don't want to.




And they aren't forced to.

Even now they can refuse to marry any couple they want. Even if the couple can legally get married.




This is where calling all "joinings", be they homosexual or heterosexual as "civil unions" would come in handy, and designating "marriage" as a religious rite.

With the way things are now, good luck in getting either side to agree to this, as it's an "all or nothing" battle.


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Originally posted by JaTo:
It's a quagmire, no doubt about it.





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Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:

Nobody has said they can't have some sort of union or whatever, they just can't call it marraige.




So, if we change it to simply a civil union with all of benefits, detriments and priviledges of the current definition of marriage, you would be ok with it?

Ryan, let me ask you some questions. I don't know if you are/were married but for example sake, lets say you are.

1.) Would changing the legal terminology of your marriage to civil union offend you?

2.) Would you cease to use the term "married" when describing your relationship?

3.) Would there be any effect on anyone if some did a ctrl-F in all govt files for the word marriage and replaced with civil union?

4.) What are the ramifications for the straight people if they get their word taken away or expanded?

5.) Will allowing Serge and Antonio describing themselves as "married" in any way shape or form reduce the meaning of you marriage to your wife? Will it make it easier for you to divorce her in your mind? Does it affect the love you feel for her and the sanctity of the act of marriage?

YOu don't have to answer these, but just think about them for a bit. If anyone can answer yes to any single portion of number 5, I have a lot of sympathy for them. They obviously are in a relationship that is already doomed to failure. We need to look at the root cause of the problems, not find excuses of why the family structure in America is swirling straight down the crapper.

Kremit,

Stepping back from this and thinking about it for a bit, do you REALLY believe in the slippery slope argument? When reading it, I have a hard time distinguishing it from somethign The Onion would right. I am pretty well conservative, afterall, I am a repentent hate mongering catholic but I just don't understand the mindset of bickering over a word.


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Howabout "legally married" as opposed to "cerimonially married"? That way both parties could say "yes, I am married" yet only one pertains to a court and a religion.

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