Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives
Posted By: todras_dup1 The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:18 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13939015/

â?¢ Dodge Sprinter van
â?¢ Ford Crown Victoria sedan
â?¢ Mercury Grand Marquis sedan
â?¢ Pontiac Grand Prix sedan
â?¢ Ford E-Series van
â?¢ Dodge Durango SUV
â?¢ Dodge Ram 1500 pickup
â?¢ Buick Terraza minivan
â?¢ Chevrolet Uplander minivan
â?¢ Pontiac SV6 minivan
â?¢ Saturn Relay minivan
â?¢ Saturn Ion coupe and sedan
â?¢ Ford Ranger pickup

Why is the Ranger in there when it's one of the highest selling vehicles? At least I thought it was.
Posted By: XKontour98 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:25 PM
Drrr.... Drr.... read the article:

Caption under title:
Quote:

List tracks vehicles with poorest gas mileage, safety ratings, resale value




And actually in the article:
Quote:

We tracked down the domestic vehicles that have the lowest gas mileage, do the poorest job of holding their value, have the lowest safety ratings, have the worst predicted reliability, have the lowest percentage of satisfied owners, and get the worst U.S. Environmental Protection Agency air-pollution and greenhouse-gas scores.




Quote:

The cars that made our list are not necessarily unpopular ones.




Seriously Todd, I wouldn't have expected it from you of all people
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:26 PM
Actually I did read that after I posted. I didn't feel like editing. Bah.
Posted By: Jeb Hoge_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:40 PM
Originally posted by todras:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13939015/

â?¢ Dodge Sprinter van
â?¢ Ford Crown Victoria sedan
â?¢ Mercury Grand Marquis sedan
â?¢ Pontiac Grand Prix sedan
â?¢ Ford E-Series van
â?¢ Dodge Durango SUV
â?¢ Dodge Ram 1500 pickup
â?¢ Buick Terraza minivan
â?¢ Chevrolet Uplander minivan
â?¢ Pontiac SV6 minivan
â?¢ Saturn Relay minivan
â?¢ Saturn Ion coupe and sedan
â?¢ Ford Ranger pickup






Wooo, Consumer Reports. And I love how they spell out this long list and then halfheartedly point out that the four minivans are all basically the same vehicle, and same as the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. And I definitely agree that including the Ranger in there is a big "huh?"
Posted By: Tourige Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:56 PM
Why is it only American cars?

Wait.. its because consumer reports are bogus [censored] propaganda.

Guarenteed they would never make an "Import Worst Cars of 2006" Cause there is no such thing as a bad import, they are amazing in every way and american cars are crap that no one buys
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 03:59 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6816862 Dated Feb 05 though.

The worst cars on the market.

â?¢ Kia Rio
â?¢ Mitsubishi Lancer
â?¢ Nissan Sentra
â?¢ Ford Ranger
â?¢ Mazda B-Series
â?¢ Ford Explorer Sport Trac
LEAST RELIABLE
â?¢ Lincoln Navigator
LOWEST RESIDUAL VALUE
â?¢ Dodge Neon
â?¢ Lincoln LS V-6
â?¢ Chrysler Sebring sedan

Source: Forbes.com
Posted By: sigma Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:08 PM
Yay, more media bias against the American auto industry. Instead of writing something actually useful like the worst cars, regardless of where they're from, we further needlessly denegrate American automobiles by writing an entire article about how bad they are.

Instead of looking at a variety of sources of information as any real journalist should to write an article they stick with one -- Consumer Reports.

To determine mileage they use EPA numbers while burning ethanol. Ethanol results in significantly lower mileage (and the cost is lower so the cost/mile is roughly the same) and, perhaps more importantly, significantly less pollution.

The author claims to use EPA numbers for everything, but then decides on his own to adjust them lower based on their MPG they get on ethanol which of course is lower. Blatant manipulation of the numbers to exaggerate the point.

The fact that there are actually worst cars out there is certain. But the author makes attempt to make that clear, he only wants to paint certain American cars as being unsafe, gas-guzzling, wastes of money.

He explicitly states that these cars "exemplify how far US automakers hae to go to compete in the global market." Do what? It's a ranking of American cars. There is no comparison of foreign makes or models here. It doesn't 'exemplify' anything. These cars could be the best on the planet outside of America, they just happen to be the worst available here. If I made a list of the "Worst Japanese Cars" and only looked at Japanese cars, could I say that my list exemplified why Japanese cars suck more than American ones?

That's not to say that some of them aren't bad cars, but this article is specifically designed, and even explicitly stated as such, to paint as many of them with that brush as possible, regardless of the fact that many of these cars may not be anywhere near the top of an actual ranking of all cars.

When are we going to see an article on how the tiny-engined Toyota Corolla (non-California version) is one of the single worst-polluting cars sold in the United States and far and away the worst-polluting small car?

Or an article on how, of the various market segments, 14 of them, American automobiles are only the most-polluting in 2 categories, and one of those categories, Large Trucks, is because there's no foreign competition in the market. Any takers on that article?

Nope. Didn't think so.
Posted By: TourDeForce Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:13 PM
Those might be the worst American cars in terms of cost to own for 3 to 5 years, but there are some good, solid vehicles on that list. Reliability, or rather lack thereof, was obviously not their primary target for the list.

The full size sedans are a very limited market but those models dominate that market. Used car prices on those sedans is low because the owners like the reliablity of a newer car, and are accustomed to purchasing a new vehicle every 4 years or so. The resale market is then flooded with those cars that don't appeal to a wide audience, so used car prices are very low. One of the reasons I love the Grand Marquis, you can get a LOT of pre-owned, RWD, V-8 car for relatively low dollars. Prices are rediculously low - especially here in Florida, but they're good cars.

Posted By: TourDeForce Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:18 PM
Originally posted by sigma:
Instead of looking at a variety of sources of information as any real journalist should to write an article they stick with one -- Consumer Reports.




I actually like the reliability ratings as a guide. Consumer Reports has its place.

The Irony of that list is that some of those cars - like the Grand Marquis/Crown Victoria are CR picks for among the best in their 'large car' class for reliability.
Posted By: AliasJerk? Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:26 PM
Originally posted by todras:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13939015/

â?¢ Dodge Sprinter van
â?¢ Ford Crown Victoria sedan
â?¢ Mercury Grand Marquis sedan
â?¢ Pontiac Grand Prix sedan
â?¢ Ford E-Series van
â?¢ Dodge Durango SUV
â?¢ Dodge Ram 1500 pickup
â?¢ Buick Terraza minivan
â?¢ Chevrolet Uplander minivan
â?¢ Pontiac SV6 minivan
â?¢ Saturn Relay minivan
â?¢ Saturn Ion coupe and sedan
â?¢ Ford Ranger pickup

Why is the Ranger in there when it's one of the highest selling vehicles? At least I thought it was.




my mom is gonna be pissed when I show this to her... (grand prix). We TOLD her to get a CAMRY GAHHH!
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:28 PM
Originally posted by AliasJerkâ??¢:


my mom is gonna be pissed when I show this to her... (grand prix). We TOLD her to get a CAMRY GAHHH!




The sky is falling. The Grand Prix is a fine car. The 3800 is a very reliable engine. If aggressive service is performed the car will go 150k w/o issue.
Posted By: AliasJerk? Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:39 PM
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by AliasJerkâ??¢:


my mom is gonna be pissed when I show this to her... (grand prix). We TOLD her to get a CAMRY GAHHH!




The sky is falling. The Grand Prix is a fine car. The 3800 is a very reliable engine. If aggressive service is performed the car will go 150k w/o issue.




oh the engine will go 150K im sure no problem, its the trannie we are worried about.
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 04:48 PM
Buy a powertrain warranty.
Posted By: sonza68_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 06:22 PM
Originally posted by todras:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13939015/

â?¢ Dodge Sprinter van







Nice to see a German made it on the list.
Posted By: baco99 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 06:28 PM
Originally posted by todras:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13939015/

â?¢ Dodge Sprinter van
â?¢ Ford Crown Victoria sedan
â?¢ Mercury Grand Marquis sedan
â?¢ Pontiac Grand Prix sedan
â?¢ Ford E-Series van
â?¢ Dodge Durango SUV
â?¢ Dodge Ram 1500 pickup
â?¢ Buick Terraza minivan
â?¢ Chevrolet Uplander minivan
â?¢ Pontiac SV6 minivan
â?¢ Saturn Relay minivan
â?¢ Saturn Ion coupe and sedan
â?¢ Ford Ranger pickup

Why is the Ranger in there when it's one of the highest selling vehicles? At least I thought it was.




interesting that the Dodge Sprinter is really a Mercedes that DCX rebranded as Dodge and Freightliner. it's actualy been a huge success here in the Northeast with delivery companies, contractors, and other small businesses.

not surprised to see minivans as the worst values. they get so abused on a daily basis that they aren't worth sh!t on a trade-in.

i also notice a lot of rental cars on that list.

Posted By: mystiquevltwin Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Tourige:
Why is it only American cars?

Wait.. its because consumer reports are bogus [censored] propaganda.

Guarenteed they would never make an "Import Worst Cars of 2006" Cause there is no such thing as a bad import, they are amazing in every way and american cars are crap that no one buys




i think this is the most sensable post you've made on here
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Tourige:
Why is it only American cars?

Wait.. its because consumer reports are bogus [censored] propaganda.

Guarenteed they would never make an "Import Worst Cars of 2006" Cause there is no such thing as a bad import, they are amazing in every way and american cars are crap that no one buys





??? ???

When I clicked on the link, it was to an article from Forbes Magazine - not Consumer Reports. What makes you think CR had anything to do with the topic for that article?

And for those who missed it, the Ranger made the cut because it apparently had the lowest owner-satisfaction rating of any vehicle.
Posted By: BloodyTomFlint Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:13 PM
You didn't read the article, did you.
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:20 PM
I read the article. I must be the only one who did.
Posted By: Pete D_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:22 PM
The only thing on that list slightly suprising to me is the Ram, which IMO, is better than some of the other full size trucks.

I think the sprinter is cool, but I could see that most people that aren't business who own one, probably wouldn't like it.
Posted By: snakous Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:25 PM
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I read the article. I must be the only one who did.




If you read the article you would have seen the MANY times they referenced Consumer Reports as a source of information.

"Consumer Reports, which generally avoids opinionated reviews, complains on its Web site of the Terraza's "stiff ride and noisy interior."

"The company's Crown Victoria sedan was included because Consumer Reports assigns the car its lowest-possible rating for predicted depreciation, a measure of how models tend to hold their value through the first three years of ownership."

"We included Ford's rear-wheel-drive Ranger pickup â?? the American car with the lowest percentage of satisfied owners, according to Consumer Reports"

"the company's Dodge Sprinter van, one of four new-model American vehicles to which Consumer Reports assigns its lowest-possible rating for predicted depreciation."

"Methodology
For information about depreciation, reliability and owner satisfaction, we looked to Consumer Reports"

Seems like it might as well been a Consumer Reports article to me. Read more carefully next time!
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:36 PM
Originally posted by snakous:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I read the article. I must be the only one who did.




If you read the article you would have seen the MANY times they referenced Consumer Reports as a source of information.







Reading comprehension anyone?

If you read the article, you would have noticed that it was Forbes and not CR that decided to publish an article entitled "The Worst American Cars of 2006".

Whether or not CR is biased in favor of imports, they can't really be blamed for publishing a list of the worst American cars. They don't publish such a list. And they really have no control over whether or not another magazine decides to do so.



Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Pete D:
The only thing on that list slightly suprising to me is the Ram, which IMO, is better than some of the other full size trucks.





What?!!!!!!
Posted By: BloodyTomFlint Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:43 PM
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by snakous:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I read the article. I must be the only one who did.




If you read the article you would have seen the MANY times they referenced Consumer Reports as a source of information.







Reading comprehension anyone?

If you read the article, you would have noticed that it was Forbes and not CR that decided to publish an article entitled "The Worst American Cars of 2006".

Whether or not CR is biased in favor of imports, they can't really be blamed for publishing a list of the worst American cars. They don't publish such a list. And they really have no control over whether or not another magazine decides to do so.





I think you are the one who needs to work on reading comp. Much of thi info was TAKEN FROM CONSUMER REPORTS! How much more clear does it need to be?
Posted By: snakous Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:48 PM
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by snakous:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
I read the article. I must be the only one who did.




If you read the article you would have seen the MANY times they referenced Consumer Reports as a source of information.







Reading comprehension anyone?

If you read the article, you would have noticed that it was Forbes and not CR that decided to publish an article entitled "The Worst American Cars of 2006".

Whether or not CR is biased in favor of imports, they can't really be blamed for publishing a list of the worst American cars. They don't publish such a list. And they really have no control over whether or not another magazine decides to do so.








The fact that CR is biased towards imports DOES make a difference. Their articles are the exact ones that influenced over half the information in the Forbes article. Of course they don't publish a list of the worst American cars, that is not their job. But they provide almost all of the figures in owner satisfaction, etc which I've read are often inflated numbers and their results are based on too small of samples to make good generalizations.

I just don't personally trust Consumer Reports. I'd rather read testimonials of actual owners.
Posted By: IRingTwyce Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 08:55 PM
Originally posted by snakous:
I just don't personally trust Consumer Reports. I'd rather read testimonials of actual owners.




Bingo!
Posted By: baco99 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 09:44 PM
Originally posted by The Spelling Nazi:
Originally posted by snakous:
I just don't personally trust Consumer Reports. I'd rather read testimonials of actual owners.




Bingo!




no way Jose! i'd never trust the opinion of a GP owner.

Posted By: Bridge_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/01/06 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Tourige:
Why is it only American cars?

Wait.. its because consumer reports are bogus [censored] propaganda.

Guarenteed they would never make an "Import Worst Cars of 2006" Cause there is no such thing as a bad import, they are amazing in every way and american cars are crap that no one buys




I'll take consumer reports over ANY other review source. CR is the only source that doesn't get money from the manufacturers of the products they review.

I'm curious as to why you think they are bogus? (besides the fact that you don't agree with them)
Posted By: Kremithefrog Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 12:02 AM
CR is crap about a lotta things, especially cars. For instance, they named the highlander hybrid as top suv. .... And they're biased against american made cars.
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 12:07 AM
Well, I will give some of the points they have here. However, I agree that they should have opened the classification up to all cars and not just American ones. Such nationalizations are pointless in the modern globalized car industry.

Depreciation is a view of the market, and is not the fault of the given automobile. It has absolutely no bearing on how good or bad a given automobile is.

Given that, I don't even think they necessarily picked the worst in each class, much less in the overall marketplace. Not including the Sebring/Stratus? As bad as the Grand Prix is, those are worse.
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 01:23 AM
They (CR not Forbes) were dead on about the Contour. If it wasn't for their glowing review, I would not have gotten one.

And all that carping about an anti-American bias conspiracy at CR is nonsense. Why would they try to pull this off? Were they biased in the '80s? Even American car companies admit their cars of 20 years ago were crap when compared to Japanese cars?
Posted By: sigma Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 01:48 AM
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
They (CR not Forbes) were dead on about the Contour. If it wasn't for their glowing review, I would not have gotten one.

And all that carping about an anti-American bias conspiracy at CR is nonsense. Why would they try to pull this off? Were they biased in the '80s? Even American car companies admit their cars of 20 years ago were crap when compared to Japanese cars?




It is illogical to argue that because someone was correct in regards to something 20 years ago they must be equally correct today. Particularly when the argument being made today is that it's precisely that well-earned poor reputation from 20 years ago that affects the perception of the very consumers that are surveyed by CR. Perception changes far slower than reality.
Posted By: red99sesport Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 02:11 AM
Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
They (CR not Forbes) were dead on about the Contour. If it wasn't for their glowing review, I would not have gotten one.

And all that carping about an anti-American bias conspiracy at CR is nonsense. Why would they try to pull this off? Were they biased in the '80s? Even American car companies admit their cars of 20 years ago were crap when compared to Japanese cars?




It is illogical to argue that because someone was correct in regards to something 20 years ago they must be equally correct today. Particularly when the argument being made today is that it's precisely that well-earned poor reputation from 20 years ago that affects the perception of the very consumers that are surveyed by CR. Perception changes far slower than reality.




Yeah, that's nice, but reality doesn't sell cars. If you have done things to make sections of the American Public percieve that your cars are inferior to Japanese cars, and they won't even look at the Ford model, then you certainly won't get them to buy one, regardless of the fact that it isn't a bad car.
Posted By: sigma Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 02:34 AM
Originally posted by red99sesport:
Originally posted by sigma:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
They (CR not Forbes) were dead on about the Contour. If it wasn't for their glowing review, I would not have gotten one.

And all that carping about an anti-American bias conspiracy at CR is nonsense. Why would they try to pull this off? Were they biased in the '80s? Even American car companies admit their cars of 20 years ago were crap when compared to Japanese cars?




It is illogical to argue that because someone was correct in regards to something 20 years ago they must be equally correct today. Particularly when the argument being made today is that it's precisely that well-earned poor reputation from 20 years ago that affects the perception of the very consumers that are surveyed by CR. Perception changes far slower than reality.




Yeah, that's nice, but reality doesn't sell cars. If you have done things to make sections of the American Public percieve that your cars are inferior to Japanese cars, and they won't even look at the Ford model, then you certainly won't get them to buy one, regardless of the fact that it isn't a bad car.




Then that's not Ford's problem. If they simply won't ever buy a Ford again then there's nothing Ford can do at this point to change that. No use crying over spilled milk. What's done is done.

What they can do is go after those that aren't quite so close-minded and believe that change does happen. And many American-made models have the highest percentage of conquest sales on the market, meaning that if they can actually get people into their showrooms to look at their cars, they have a higher percentage of converting an import into a domestic buyer than vice versa. So, if/when Americans actually look at American cars, they actually like them better than the Foreign makes. The problem is getting them to look at them.

Oh, and I thought of 2 more articles-we'll-never-see-very-mainstream in addition to the 2 I mentioned earlier

1> The oh-so-perfect Toyota recalled a higher percentage of their fleet last year than any manufacturer except Ford (Ford's F-Series recall hurt them because such a large percentage of their fleet is F-series)

2> Toyota is under criminal investigation in Japan for deliberately hiding severe safety defects in order to avoid costly recalls that would hurt its' reputation. Yay Toyota!

American car companies don't make the most reliable car companies in the world. And you won't see me make any statement to the contrary. But they'd be doing a hell of a lot better with a little "fair and balanced" news reporting of their own. As soon as the automotive media stops collectively sucking on Toyota's teat and actually actively reports on some of their problems with the same level of perceived severity, the American automotive industry will rebound in a huge way.
Posted By: Tony2005 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 02:41 AM
Originally posted by sigma:
...
1> The oh-so-perfect Toyota recalled a higher percentage of their fleet last year than any manufacturer except Ford (Ford's F-Series recall hurt them because such a large percentage of their fleet is F-series)

2> Toyota is under criminal investigation in Japan for deliberately hiding severe safety defects in order to avoid costly recalls that would hurt its' reputation. Yay Toyota!
..




IIRC, there was a big lawsuit maybe 15 years or so ago in California because the Camry tires would wear out after a short time (maybe 15K miles or so). And the dealers said that it was just the way it was designed.
Posted By: red99sesport Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 02:45 AM
Originally posted by sigma:

Oh, and I thought of 2 more articles-we'll-never-see-very-mainstream in addition to the 2 I mentioned earlier

1> The oh-so-perfect Toyota recalled a higher percentage of their fleet last year than any manufacturer except Ford (Ford's F-Series recall hurt them because such a large percentage of their fleet is F-series)

2> Toyota is under criminal investigation in Japan for deliberately hiding severe safety defects in order to avoid costly recalls that would hurt its' reputation. Yay Toyota!






And I'll say this about that.

1) Who cares how many cars were recalled? It's about the nature of the recall and if a accident occured because of the problem. If the Ford recall for the cruise control involved say 500,000 units (in the USA), but those 500,000 units could catch fire in your garage, burn the house to the ground and kill you, and it did in one case, whilst Toyota had to recall 1,000,000 cars (worldwide) because the steering assembly may fail, but only say 300,00 of those cars were in the US and so far no such failure had occured here, then who will get the bad press and who will take the hit on their reputation?

2) Ford top brass once bought their way out of being found guilty of 60 or so counts of CRIMINALLY NEGLEGIANT HOMOSIDE in the US after they decided to make the Pinto cheaper by taking out its gas tank liner and rear subframe reinforcement. Elements that without, the car was a ticking time bomb. They knew this, and the didn't care. Their risk-benefit analysis showed that it would be cheaper to pay out when they killed people with their unsafe design then it would be to fix it and make the car safe. Ford also decided to use a non IRS suspension on the Explorer, compensate for the handling problems by recommending an inappropriately low tire pressure and then using dubious quality tires. This lead to the death, disablement and severe injury of over 100 people. Ford tried to cover both of those incidents up and only recalled those veicles when the Federal Government threatned to force a recall. How is that any better than what Toyota did?

Posted By: sigma Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:06 AM
I never claimed that Ford hadn't done the same things in the past or that Toyota's issues were different. But rather that you don't see equal reporting on Toyota's mishaps.

And I think you helped that point along -- you know precisely the problems that Ford has had, but I'm willing to bet money that you hadn't heard a thing about the criminal investigations at Toyota. Very few people have, and it's current news, only a couple weeks old. When Ford did it it was HUGE news, front page everywhere and headlines for weeks. When Toyota gets the exact same thing, it was never mentioned in any major news establishment and was relegated to the backs of the Business section of local newspapers at best.

And I referred to recall numbers because that's what the Media does. Until recently, that was much to the detriment of the US industry simply because they sold so many more cars than the competition so they could easily have an announcement of a "500,000 car recall" whereas others didn't sell that many cars in an entire year, let alone one model. Percentage of total sold fleet is a much better metric and Severity would of coure be ideal, but not easily quantifiable. In regards to Toyota, their severity would be rather high as well. The Prius had a problem which would cause total loss of steering at highway speeds. Hundreds of thousands of Toyotas had a problem with airbags that would cause them to not fully inflate in the event of an accident. Neither of which I would consider very minor.
Posted By: Bridge_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:13 AM
Originally posted by sigma:
And I think you helped that point along -- you know precisely the problems that Ford has had, but I'm willing to bet money that you hadn't heard a thing about the criminal investigations at Toyota. Very few people have, and it's current news, only a couple weeks old. When Ford did it it was HUGE news, front page everywhere and headlines for weeks.




Well lets step back and look at this one....

100 people die when Ford Explorer tires fail on the highway

10,000 Toyota Corolla owners need to go to the dealer to fix their potentially defective seatbelts....


Which one is news to you?
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:14 AM
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/06/01/022275.html

Your blame of Ford in the Explorer case is completely based on fiction. Firestone did not deliver the tire they were contracted to deliver, it's that simple.

On the Pinto case, that is irrelevant ancient history, and I don't have the facts to determine whether the outcome was warranted.

Let's see... steering separating and failing while being driven (Prius), sudden stalling in traffic when driving (Prius), air bag failures (several vehicles)... yeah really minor.

Ford can't fix the stupidity of the American public. They have convinced themselves of the hallucination that Toyota delivers vastly superior quality when the facts show the differences are very small. They pay a premium price for an illusion...
Posted By: red99sesport Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:20 AM
Originally posted by sigma:
I never claimed that Ford hadn't done the same things in the past or that Toyota's issues were different. But rather that you don't see equal reporting on Toyota's mishaps.

And I think you helped that point along -- you know precisely the problems that Ford has had, but I'm willing to bet money that you hadn't heard a thing about the criminal investigations at Toyota. Very few people have, and it's current news, only a couple weeks old. When Ford did it it was HUGE news, front page everywhere and headlines for weeks. When Toyota gets the exact same thing, it was never mentioned in any major news establishment and was relegated to the backs of the Business section of local newspapers at best.

And I referred to recall numbers because that's what the Media does. Until recently, that was much to the detriment of the US industry simply because they sold so many more cars than the competition so they could easily have an announcement of a "500,000 car recall" whereas others didn't sell that many cars in an entire year, let alone one model. Percentage of total sold fleet is a much better metric and Severity would of coure be ideal, but not easily quantifiable. In regards to Toyota, their severity would be rather high as well. The Prius had a problem which would cause total loss of steering at highway speeds. Hundreds of thousands of Toyotas had a problem with airbags that would cause them to not fully inflate in the event of an accident. Neither of which I would consider very minor.




You'd be wrong about me not knowing about the Toyota recall and investigation. It was on google news several days ago, and I knew about it before I read it there. However, I will agree that Ford and GM will get bad coverage when they have a recall and Toyota and Honda will barely get a mention. But the news tells people what they want to hear and to some extent our country has a domestic car inferiority complex. We want to see and hear when Ford and GM fail and we don't want to see and hear when Honda and Toyota do.

Do I believe that all Toyotas are goldern and all Ford cars are scum? The answer is no, there are certain Toyotas I would never buy. A Celica GT-S isn't a substitute for a Mustang, and according to the magazine CR (which I know you guys think are totally biased) the Mustang was the single most reliable car in 2005, more reliable than a Lexus or Toyota anything. Would I ever buy a Tundra over an F150, not if I wanted a real truck and not some girly toy to drive on road only. Would I buy a Tacoma over a Ranger? Nope, the Ranger is more reliable, cheaper to maintain, and costs less up front when identically equipped.

I'm not an American Car hater, I don't want to see them do poorly. Many of my friends and family rely on their sucess to keep afloat financially. I don't want to see them go under, but they need to do better and they need to get people to see they are doing better. I don't know how they'll do that, but it is what they need to do.
Posted By: Tony2005 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:21 AM
I have a question. If the Mercury Villager performs well, is it because it is actually a Japanese minivan (Nissan Quest until 2002)? If it performs poorly, is it because it is actually an American minivan? And if they are the same, why are residual values worse for the Villager compared to the Quest?

Hint. Perception.
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:26 AM
Well, the first generation was an excellent minivan because Nissan was in their good design phase, and the second generation wasn't nearly as nice because Nissan was in their incompetent design phase.
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:34 AM
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:


Your blame of Ford in the Explorer case is completely based on fiction. Firestone did not deliver the tire they were contracted to deliver, it's that simple.






Why don't you read up a little bit on Ford's part in this fiasco and get back to us.

I'm guessing if you checked out a site called "The Tire Channel", you'd find that it was the Explorer that was at fault.
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:43 AM
I cannot seem to locate that site. I would have been willing to read it, but I would be greatly surprised if it gave anything I haven't already read. I have read many articles and sites about this issue over the years. Ford had no part in it, except through Firestone's attempts to shift blame for not delivering what they were paid to. The facts and statistics simply do not support the hypothesis the vehicle was faulty.
Posted By: Kremithefrog Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:44 AM
It was partially ford's fault and partially firestone's. From what I've seen, it was more firestones fault.
Posted By: red99sesport Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:46 AM
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I cannot seem to locate that site. I would have been willing to read it, but I would be greatly surprised if it gave anything I haven't already read. The facts and statistics simply do not support the hypothesis the vehicle was faulty.




Do you really think Ford didn't pay for studies and facts and stats that said their car wasn't at fault just to avoid having to admit they designed a flawed vehicle? Other companies do this all the time.
Posted By: Tony2005 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:51 AM
Originally posted by red99sesport:
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I cannot seem to locate that site. I would have been willing to read it, but I would be greatly surprised if it gave anything I haven't already read. The facts and statistics simply do not support the hypothesis the vehicle was faulty.




Do you really think Ford didn't pay for studies and facts and stats that said their car wasn't at fault just to avoid having to admit they designed a flawed vehicle? Other companies do this all the time.




How do you explain this? So it was more tire fault than vehicle fault, wasn't it?

"First, Ford fitted both Firestone tires and Goodyear tires on Explorers beginning in 1995 and through the 1997 model year. And the difference in performance is dramatic. For the roughly 3 million Firestone tires equipped on about 500,000 Explorers, Firestone's own claims database shows that there have been 1,183 claims of tread separation. For the 3 million Goodyear tires on another 500,000 Explorers (that have traveled more than 25 billion miles), there have been only two minor claims of tread separation according to claims information supplied by Goodyear. The performance on the Firestone AT tires on Explorer is 600 times worse than Goodyear tires on Explorer. This remains the only apples-to-apples comparison in this issue. If the vehicle was the issue, or at the very least a contributing factor, the tread separations between the Firestone and Goodyear tires would be in the same ballpark. They are not even close. That's why Ford is replacing the Firestone Wilderness AT tires.

Second, when Ford engineers tested the Wilderness AT tires over the past nine months, they found that the tires were more sensitive to stresses and consistently failed at higher rates, at lower speeds and lighter loads than other tires tested, including the Goodyear tires used on Explorer.

Third, the failure rates of Firestone Wilderness AT tires differ dramatically based on the plant in which they were made. If the vehicle were the cause of these separations, the tire plant location would not make a difference in rate of tread separations reported.

Finally, Firestone CEO John Lampe testified last year before Congress under oath and said the following: "We made some bad tires and we take full responsibility for those." When a Senator asked, "Are bad tires equated to be tires that have defects of some kind," Mr. Lampe responded, "Yes, sir."
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 03:54 AM
Do you really think that Firestone wouldn't distort reality to shift the blame from them either? It's a matter of looking at everything, interpreting it, and assembling it into the most realistic set of facts.

I found too many things that simply didn't add up to a flawed vehicle (or at least one more flawed than the general class, which is an assessment of reasonable prudence).
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 04:00 AM
Jacques Nassar (remember him) also said that the Explorer fiasco was all Firestone's fault. Apparently he did not think that Ford's specifying an unreasonably low tire pressure (since Explorers tended to flip at the normal 30 psi) had anything to do with the extreme failure rate of the Firestone tires - and the related rollovers.

Apparently your exhaustive research on the Explorer fiasco failed to turn up anythng about this.



Posted By: red99sesport Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 04:02 AM
The vehicle design goes down to what tires you pick for it. If you pick a tire with a higher failure rate that is more sensetive to things a car sees often, then your design choices were poor and you are at fault. As an automaker it is your responsiility to make damn sure all your suppliers supply you with good parts. If you don't then the overall design of the vehicle may be compromised. That is your issue and your issue alone. It is especially your issue when you knew before releasing the vehicle to the public that the car's handling was so adversly effected by tire pressures and that the low tire pressure you recommended would need a tire that could resist failure due to heat buildup more than you would need on other vehicles. Ford could have corrected the tire pressure issue by lowering the center of gravity of the car, fitting it the an IRS or any number of other things. Instead they chose to fix the problems by adjusting tire pressures downward. This was an accident waiting to happen because as soon as you lower pressure in a tire to a abnormally low level you are asking for eventual failure. If you knew that failure would case the car to be almost impossible to keep on the road because of its high center of gravity, then it was your responsibility to not only not recommend the lower tire pressure, but to make the handling safer by adding the IRS and lowering the center of gravity of the car.
Posted By: 96RedSE5Sp_dup1 Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/02/06 04:11 AM
Exactly. And the consequences are even more foreseeable when you start out with a vehicle that has a high center of gravity
and is highly prone to rolling over to begin with.

Oh, and can anyone tell us what tires came as standard equipment on the Ford Ranger at the relevant time? WHen was the last time you heard about Ford Ranger rollover lawsuits?
Posted By: ZoomZoom Diva Re: The worst American cars of 2006 - 08/03/06 12:39 AM
Yet Rangers with those tires have also experienced a greater than normal rate of tire failures. It may not be getting the same degree of attention, but the failures are still there.

I also have found the claims that the Explorer flipped at 30psi tire inflation to be dubious at best. I have read the claims and the rebuttals, and the claims don't have much of a leg to stand on in my opinion. The best reasons I can find for the 26 psi is a softer, more carlike ride quality. Also, 26 is not unreasonably low. Both Firestone and Goodyear told Ford the pressure was reasonable for the tires and the Goodyears have not suffered from any issues because of it.

Unfortunately, since tires can look fine when defective and issues are reported to the tire manufacturer, the data is not necessarily available to compile as quickly as one may like. I believe you have to be able to trust people to do the job you hired them to perform, and it is on them if they do not. The only thing I might place on Ford is to not have a better system of tracking tire failures.

I think you are placing far too much expectation of perfection on Ford and nothing on Firestone failing to deliver what it promised.
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