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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
Posts: 504
Loc: Binghamton, NY
NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC!
#657068 - 07/06/04 02:39 AM

I'm so pissed off. I took everyones advice and switched to Mobil 1 sythentic 10w-30 oil. When I pulled the car out of the garage (the next morning) I noticed a small puddle of oil but thought that was normal with an older car switching to synthetic. To cut a long story short, I lost almost 3 quarts of oil in the span of 3 days and now it's throwing oil all over. Mostly out of the breather valve. I put more oil in to have the 4.5 quarts the zetec holds and am changing my oil again tomorrow to 20w-50 so hopefully it'll plug whatever damage has been done. I'm guessing that the synthetic broke down some carbon on the pistons so they don't have enough pressure and it's shooting oil up through but I have no clue. Anybody ever have this problem or know what it might be? ANY help would be apprectiated.


Thanks,
Mike

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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HITMANinMI
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Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 2725
Loc: Grand Rapids, Michigan - Chicago, IL
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657071 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 02:44 AM

20w 50, huh??? you should use 10w - 30.



--------------------
NEW CAR!!!!!!! 2004 Chevy Cavalier
-15k, 2.2 Ecotec, dark blue, sport package
GONE FINALLY -1996 Contour GL - Zetec - Auto - 76k

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Kremithefrog
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Reged: 05/14/02
Posts: 21653
Loc: Albany, Georgia
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657076 (Re: HITMANinMI) 07/06/04 02:49 AM

Originally posted by HITMANinMI:
20w 50, huh??? you should use 10w - 30.





5w-30 but anyways,,,


your car was gonna show a leak at some point anyways, pretty soon by the sound of it. Synthetic oil is not for every engine, if you think your engine might have a clogged leak, than don't use it. I switched at 83k miles with no trouble.

--------------------
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)

FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater

CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15

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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657081 (Re: Kremithefrog) 07/06/04 02:53 AM

It's not "leaking" it's pouring out the breather on the top. And the 20w-50 is only temporary until we figure out whats going on with it. (Figure, thicker oil, less chance of leakage)

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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Kremithefrog
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Reged: 05/14/02
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Loc: Albany, Georgia
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657097 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 03:05 AM

Hmm, that is strange stuff. Hope you get it fixed. There was something already wrong with your car though, the synthetic oil just made it evident (somehow).

--------------------
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)

FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater

CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15

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AliasJerk™
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Reged: 10/14/03
Posts: 5143
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657108 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 03:12 AM

You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak. I Suggest you use a Synthetic BLEND, you can use that at any time, and you dont have to change as often , and it makes the engine run cooler preventing wear and making the engine last longer.

--------------------
98 Corolla LE 1.8L DOHC 1ZZFE
TEIN H.Tech Springs
Tokico HP series Struts
Short ram air intake
Tsudo Axel Back Exhaust

... if a jelly fish stung me.. would you pee on the wound?


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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657110 (Re: Kremithefrog) 07/06/04 03:13 AM

I've never had any problems remotely close to that though thats why im so confused. My car only has 84k on it.

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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tiv
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Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657112 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 03:16 AM

just curious: how many miles are there on the car, and what kind of oil did you use before ?

thx,
Tiv

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AliasJerk™
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657113 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 03:16 AM

to many miles to switch to a synthetic oil with. Your engine seals are adapted to a regular or Synthetic blend oil, I dont know why exactly, but a Synthetic oil needs to be adapted to right from the start.

--------------------
98 Corolla LE 1.8L DOHC 1ZZFE
TEIN H.Tech Springs
Tokico HP series Struts
Short ram air intake
Tsudo Axel Back Exhaust

... if a jelly fish stung me.. would you pee on the wound?


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MxRacer
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657116 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 03:17 AM

this thread makes baby jesus cry.

--------------------
02 Mustang GT... Tuned by Nelsons. Low 12's, anyone?


.....______
___|______\_____
|/-\_________/-\_|
.\_/...............\_/

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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
Posts: 504
Loc: Binghamton, NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657120 (Re: tiv) 07/06/04 03:19 AM

Originally posted by tiv:
just curious: how many miles are there on the car, and what kind of oil did you use before ?

thx,
Tiv




84k and anybrand 10w-30

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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HITMANinMI
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Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 2725
Loc: Grand Rapids, Michigan - Chicago, IL
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657122 (Re: Kremithefrog) 07/06/04 03:20 AM

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

5w-30 but anyways,,,






Everytime winter or summer when I dont do my oil changes they have always used 10w 30.
Where did you hear 5w 30?


--------------------
NEW CAR!!!!!!! 2004 Chevy Cavalier
-15k, 2.2 Ecotec, dark blue, sport package
GONE FINALLY -1996 Contour GL - Zetec - Auto - 76k

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Batmobile
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657133 (Re: HITMANinMI) 07/06/04 03:32 AM

Um, the manual says 5w-30. I use Mobil-1 5w-30, have been using it since about 40k, now at 100k with no problems. Before I used Mobil-1, I was just using whatever was on sale but always 5w-30.

--------------------
My Cardomain page!


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AliasJerk™
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657135 (Re: HITMANinMI) 07/06/04 03:32 AM

5W-30 is written all over the car, in the engine bay near the Spark plug gap requirement, in the manual under Specifications, should be the last page. I can’t believe you didn’t know that, hell, I knew that.

--------------------
98 Corolla LE 1.8L DOHC 1ZZFE
TEIN H.Tech Springs
Tokico HP series Struts
Short ram air intake
Tsudo Axel Back Exhaust

... if a jelly fish stung me.. would you pee on the wound?


Edited by AliasJerk (07/06/04 03:34 AM)

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Kremithefrog
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Reged: 05/14/02
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657149 (Re: AliasJerk™) 07/06/04 03:49 AM

Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak. I Suggest you use a Synthetic BLEND, you can use that at any time, and you dont have to change as often , and it makes the engine run cooler preventing wear and making the engine last longer.



VERY VERY VERY INCORRECT. I and many others have switched to synthetic with NO trouble what so ever. SOME cars will leak, but they already have a leak in their future if that occurs, the synthetic just speeds up the process. Synthetic blends are nothing more than good dino oil, thus a waste of money in my eyes.

And hitman, dude... I'm not gonna say anything mean, just learn more about cars or save the "advice", please.

--------------------
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)

FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater

CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15

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CRZYDRVR
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657150 (Re: AliasJerk™) 07/06/04 03:51 AM

Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak.




Nonsense. I have seen otherwise too many times to believe that.

--------------------
-Ken V.
1998.5 SE Praire Tan Zetec ATX
psycho_bass@hotmail.com
Roush springs Roush rear sway bar BAT struts 17" Millie Miglia HT3 and a ton of subtle asthetic mods

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hetfield
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657164 (Re: CRZYDRVR) 07/06/04 04:07 AM

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:
Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak.




Nonsense. I have seen otherwise too many times to believe that.




Agreed. I switched my SVT over a year ago with no ill effects. Not to mention every expert article I've ever read about long-term storage of vehicles recommends putting in synthetic oil right before you store, even if you normally use regular dino oil.

Possibly what happened here was that there was a leak about to happen, and the detergents in the synthetic oil of choice cleaned out some deposits somewhere, causing the leak. I know of people who switched to synthetic after years of dino oil use who reported "chunks" or "gobs" of crap coming out on their next oil change because of the cleaning agents in synthetic oils.

Here's what ExxonMobil has to say about it:

Quote:

Mobil 1 will leak out of the seals of older cars.
Reality


Mobil 1 does not cause leaks. In fact, new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ was tested in dozens of industry standard and OEM tests to prove its seal performance. It is fully compatible with the elastomeric materials from which all automotive seals and gaskets are made.

ExxonMobil engineers are wary of conventional oils that tout their use of additional seal-swelling agents. With extended use, these agents can over-soften engine seals, resulting in leaks. More to the point, an oil additive will not rejuvenate worn or damaged seals. The damaged seal may have been caused by a worn rotating metal component in the engine.

If an older engine is in good condition and does not have oil leaks, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ provides the same advantages as when used in a new engine. ExxonMobil recommends taking measures to repair the leaks, then using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™. ExxonMobil also always recommends following the automobile manufacturer's manual for the proper oil to use.




--------------------
Beer is my Gatorade.
Hooray Beer.

'98 "Sport" Pacific Green
'98 E0 SVT Silver Frost
Pictures

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AliasJerk™
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Reged: 10/14/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657194 (Re: CRZYDRVR) 07/06/04 04:45 AM

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:
Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak.




Nonsense. I have seen otherwise too many times to believe that.




I actually probably should reword that. Synthetic is kind of a strange type of oil, it acts differently in all cars. But from what I have seen and heard, people who switch to a synthetic with higher miles (60K or greater) have had leaking problems. I would never use a Full Synthetic, because its expensive and kind of iffy to use. Im happy with my Castrol Synthetic Blend thank you.

--------------------
98 Corolla LE 1.8L DOHC 1ZZFE
TEIN H.Tech Springs
Tokico HP series Struts
Short ram air intake
Tsudo Axel Back Exhaust

... if a jelly fish stung me.. would you pee on the wound?


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CRZYDRVR
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Posts: 8301
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657206 (Re: AliasJerk™) 07/06/04 05:16 AM

Originally posted by AliasJerk:
Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:
Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak.




Nonsense. I have seen otherwise too many times to believe that.




I actually probably should reword that. Synthetic is kind of a strange type of oil, it acts differently in all cars. But from what I have seen and heard, people who switch to a synthetic with higher miles (60K or greater) have had leaking problems. I would never use a Full Synthetic, because its expensive and kind of iffy to use. Im happy with my Castrol Synthetic Blend thank you.




I kind of figured that wasnt exactly what you meant. No biggie. I just had to put my 2 cents worth in

--------------------
-Ken V.
1998.5 SE Praire Tan Zetec ATX
psycho_bass@hotmail.com
Roush springs Roush rear sway bar BAT struts 17" Millie Miglia HT3 and a ton of subtle asthetic mods

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mr_froge
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Reged: 03/17/02
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Loc: Silicon Valley, CA
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657248 (Re: CRZYDRVR) 07/06/04 06:29 AM

Just wanted to clarify some things about synthetic oil use. I have customers who have successfully switched to synthetics with over a 118,000 mileson their cars; and with cars that were 36 years old and there was no knowledge of their actual mileage might have been.. With that said, here is the caveat:

When used in mechanically sound engines, AMSOIL Motor Oils can reduce oil consumption. Under test conditions, a reduction of as much as 42% was demonstrated for prolonged periods. However, this should not be taken to mean that AMSOIL Motor Oils are “cure-all's” for engines that consume oil because of mechanical problems.

Here is the recommended procedure for changing to AMSOIL Motor Oils. In older vehicles or those with high mileage, it is advisable to use AMSOIL Engine Flush first. This will ensure that the engine is clean and free of any accumulated contaminants which might have an effect on the service life of AMSOIL Motor Oils. In all cases, it is good judgment to install a new AMSOIL Super Duty Full-Flow Oil Filter (SDF) every time you change oil.

The engine in question sounds as if the oil passages were clogged by contaminates and oil sludge which was loosened by using Mobil 1....

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

--------------------
- Rich
LBC Performance Motorsports Group/AMSOIL
'98 Cougar V6 ATX aka 'Candy Striper'
Photos

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ElKy
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Reged: 10/10/01
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657285 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 11:54 AM

Originally posted by contourGL1996:
It's not "leaking" it's pouring out the breather on the top. And the 20w-50 is only temporary until we figure out whats going on with it. (Figure, thicker oil, less chance of leakage)




Usually when oil is coming out of the breather, there is excessive pressure in the motor.
this is caused by a faulty PCV system.
try changing your PCV valve and see if that fixes your problem.

--------------------
NY State Trooper: So what makes your car so special to have SVT all over it?
Me: Er...It was made by Fords SPECIAL Vehicle Team?

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Obsidian
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Reged: 01/04/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657288 (Re: ElKy) 07/06/04 12:08 PM

I switched my zetec over to 10w-30 at about 75000 miles and ran 10w-30 in her through winter and summer for two years. I tried 5w-30 in her but she hated it. Then I got in the wreck and no more zetec. She had 120,000 miles on her, 45,000 miles of castrol syntec 10w-30 and she had full compression on all four after the wreck (engine was still perfect cept for radiator and power steering).

Now I have this honda accord with over 180,000 miles. I switch over to castrol syntec 10w-30 and voila, perfect. The car runs like a dream, no oil leaks whatsoever and she no longer burns oil.


So whoever said you can't change engines with over such and such miles.... you're a liar!

--------------------
95 Mystique GS Zetec ATX: Dead - Dec 5th, 2003
94 Accord LX 2.2L MTX Non-Vtec. Few bolt ons.
02 Escape XLT 3.0 V6 ATX. This thing has the CD4E in it?! What the hell was ford thinking?

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fdunford
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Reged: 08/21/03
Posts: 403
Loc: Canton, MI
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657326 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 01:58 PM

This will happen quite frequently (I hesitate only slightly from using always) when switching from dyno to synthetic on medium to high mileage vehicles. This is because synthetic has smaller molecules which will find and penetrate smaller cracks than dyno. There's a high chance you can stop the leak by switching back to dyno, or using autorx at http://autorx.com. See http://bobistheoilguy.com for any questions you ever had on oil, lubrication, filters, and additives.



--------------------
96 Sport 2.0L - 190,XXX miles

Edited by fdunford (07/06/04 01:59 PM)

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F111D F
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657345 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 02:18 PM

Pcv system needs checked out. Should be something on this I remember others having this trouble, regardless the type of oil. I don't have a Zetec, sorry no experience.

Paul

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657371 (Re: ElKy) 07/06/04 02:42 PM


Usually when oil is coming out of the breather, there is excessive pressure in the motor.
this is caused by a faulty PCV system.
try changing your PCV valve and see if that fixes your problem.






I actually did just change the PCV valve yesterday but the oil is still coming out of the breather.



--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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ElKy
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Reged: 10/10/01
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657378 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/06/04 02:46 PM

odd.

--------------------
NY State Trooper: So what makes your car so special to have SVT all over it?
Me: Er...It was made by Fords SPECIAL Vehicle Team?

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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
Posts: 504
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657676 (Re: ElKy) 07/06/04 08:42 PM

No leakage today so keep your fingers crossed.

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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bigerik
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Reged: 12/06/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#657863 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/07/04 12:32 AM



Synthetic does not cause leaks. PERIOD.
For a leak to start after the change, the problem had to exist allready. In other words, you had big problems in the VERY near future.
Synthetic beats regular oil in every way. Will not go into the power or fuel mileage debate here, or even value for money, but it IS better oil.
Synthetic blend is basically just snake oil. Either use dino oil or synthetic.
Erik

--------------------
95 LX/SE V6 5 Speed NUN 1
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/588083

"The Contour SE is the best American car I have ever driven and one of the best cars period." Larry Griffin - C&D

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contourGL1996
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Reged: 06/22/03
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658230 (Re: bigerik) 07/07/04 02:51 PM

Well, i spoke too soon, it's still leaking. I've come to the conclusion however that it only leaks when im really pushing my car. I drove around like an old guy for the most part yesterday with no leaks but on my way home last night i drove like normal and there was oil everywhere....

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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gearhead98
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Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 1145
Loc: Durham NC
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658256 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/07/04 03:44 PM

i hate to get on everyone's bad side about this but i believe the cars need 5w-20 instead of 5w-30, here is why

oil recommendations

and read the whole thing before you bite my head off about it, and i am not trying to say that all you out there using 5w-30 and any other weight are wrong just maybe uninformed

--------------------
98.5 Black SE ATX
S&B filter, SVT MAF, optimized SVT TB, mesh grille, removed orange reflectors, painted rear reflector, gutted pre-cats, optimized SVT LIM, 19lb injectors, resonator removed

cant afford an svt but lookin for 1 in nc

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lauraq
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658280 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 04:17 PM

Well I have been using Mobil 1 in my car since around 20,000 - 30,000 km and I am now at 293,000 KM and have never, touch wood, had any problems at all. I don't even burn oil.

--------------------
1998 BLK SVT CONTOUR
#2980 of 6535
395,000(ish) km (and counting)
SVTOA-TORONTO
Chapter Director
www.svtoa-toronto.ca

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wa2tuff
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658329 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/07/04 04:59 PM

I find all these posts funny (peculiar, not haha) because I asked a similiar question a few months ago and the answers then didn't say anything about synthetics accelerating an existing problem. My question was that with synthetic oil, I find that all 3 of my cars use oil. I check them each month and more often than not, I have to add oil, not alot, but enough to check. None of them leak, drip, puddle, smoke, etc. All the cars had 50K+ when I made the switch. I don't know if it's my butt dyno, but they all seem to run better now. I'll live with periodically adding oil, but I still don't have a concrete answer as to where the oil is actually going. Hopefully, there is not a problem in all 3 cars the oil is going to make happen sooner.

--------------------
WA 2 TUFF SVT
2000 Tropic Green SVT Born 1/28/2000-1975 out of 2150-only 207 made. Some new pics



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gearhead98
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658339 (Re: wa2tuff) 07/07/04 05:09 PM

i guess because as said above the oil molecules are smaller a little bit of it is gettting burned off, just a guess dont know for sure, but i have heard that for the duratec's it is not uncommon for it to loose a little oil over a period of time, and that the engine is perfectly fine in it

--------------------
98.5 Black SE ATX
S&B filter, SVT MAF, optimized SVT TB, mesh grille, removed orange reflectors, painted rear reflector, gutted pre-cats, optimized SVT LIM, 19lb injectors, resonator removed

cant afford an svt but lookin for 1 in nc

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dnewma04
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Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658344 (Re: bigerik) 07/07/04 05:14 PM

Originally posted by bigerik:


Synthetic does not cause leaks. PERIOD.
For a leak to start after the change, the problem had to exist allready. In other words, you had big problems in the VERY near future.
Synthetic beats regular oil in every way. Will not go into the power or fuel mileage debate here, or even value for money, but it IS better oil.
Synthetic blend is basically just snake oil. Either use dino oil or synthetic.
Erik




I don't think anyone will argue it is superior oil. The argument is exactly where you said you won't go. Conventional oils will provide the same protection as Synthetic in 99.9999999999999999999999% of the applications it is used in and generally do it at a lower cost. Well, let's just say 99.9% to not exaggerate. If you want to spend more money on something that will have completely negligible results during a normal lifespan of a vehicle, then by all means do it. But don't do it because you feel you "need" to. My grandma driving 1/2 mile a day every couple of days probably has more of a need for synthetic than the most aggressive drivers on this site. I advised against switching to synthetics just because I find it difficult to justify the cost, not because of the potential leaking issue which leads me to my next quasi-rant

The argument about synthetics not causing oil leaks is technically true, but it's very semantical. I don't believe for a second that a major oil leak with conventionals was imminent with regard to the original poster. I'm sure there are cases where it will happen regardless of oil type. I belong to 15 car forums and have read countless threads about people switching to synthetics and finding oil leaks almost immediately. To think that each of the leaks would have happened almost immediately is foolish, in my opinion. Would they happen regardless of oil type in time? Of course, but it could also not show up as a significant problem for years.

--------------------
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg

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dnewma04
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty

Reged: 09/07/00
Posts: 4789
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658347 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 05:22 PM

Originally posted by gearhead98:
i hate to get on everyone's bad side about this but i believe the cars need 5w-20 instead of 5w-30, here is why

oil recommendations

and read the whole thing before you bite my head off about it, and i am not trying to say that all you out there using 5w-30 and any other weight are wrong just maybe uninformed





I know some people who are pretty heavily involved in setting world and US oil standards who believe that Ford is treading on some semi-dangerous ground in order to acheive marginal increases in gas mileage.


--------------------
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg

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Steeda.
Captain Impound Boy

Reged: 08/22/02
Posts: 8281
Loc: Skunkworks Autosport
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658371 (Re: dnewma04) 07/07/04 05:47 PM

I don't know about your leaking issues and what not but i used to use GTX 5-30 in my 1995 SHO with 131k on it. Car was a rocket! Switched to 5-30 Mobil one and the Engine almost instantly like 4 miles down the road started with a ticking noise. 24 miles later BLEW up.. Spun bearing cuased the #6 piston to stop rotating and in turn shattered the connecting rod. Could mobil one be the cuase sure i guess or it could have been that the Car would Rev to like 8300rpm everyday. Could be a wierd coincidence.

I used mobil one the whole life of My CSVT and noticed one difference.. GTX temp would be higher than with the Mobil 1.

Ok Tenzo 4 life!

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gearhead98
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 1145
Loc: Durham NC
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658374 (Re: dnewma04) 07/07/04 05:48 PM

Originally posted by dnewma04:
Originally posted by gearhead98:
i hate to get on everyone's bad side about this but i believe the cars need 5w-20 instead of 5w-30, here is why

oil recommendations

and read the whole thing before you bite my head off about it, and i am not trying to say that all you out there using 5w-30 and any other weight are wrong just maybe uninformed





I know some people who are pretty heavily involved in setting world and US oil standards who believe that Ford is treading on some semi-dangerous ground in order to acheive marginal increases in gas mileage.





look at my post under general mods and see what you think

--------------------
98.5 Black SE ATX
S&B filter, SVT MAF, optimized SVT TB, mesh grille, removed orange reflectors, painted rear reflector, gutted pre-cats, optimized SVT LIM, 19lb injectors, resonator removed

cant afford an svt but lookin for 1 in nc

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daenku32
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 06/21/01
Posts: 682
Loc: Middle of nowhere, IN
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658415 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 06:28 PM

Only time I have had a car with oil leaking problem was due to worn/torn rubber on the screw that holds the oil in. Replaced it and no more leakage.

I switched my SVT couple years ago and haven't seen any problems. Goes 5k miles without any noticeable drop in oil level.

--------------------
98.5 Contour SVT
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country"
--US President George W Bush

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dnewma04
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty

Reged: 09/07/00
Posts: 4789
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658425 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 06:37 PM

gearhead,

I read your post, are you looking for my opinion on what I would recommend you run? Or is there something in there that I missed that may make me change my mind about 5w20?

--------------------
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg

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DemonSVT
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 09/13/00
Posts: 9602
Loc: KC, MO
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658432 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 06:43 PM

Originally posted by gearhead98:
i hate to get on everyone's bad side about this but i believe the cars need 5w-20 instead of 5w-30, here is why

oil recommendations

and read the whole thing before you bite my head off about it, and i am not trying to say that all you out there using 5w-30 and any other weight are wrong just maybe uninformed



No you just posted a link to a old post that stated Ford has deemed "said" engines to be able to run the CAFE/EPA improving 5W20.

Ford only picked 5W20 because it raised their average fleet MPG. This way they could sell more trucks and not have to make them actually run any more efficiently!

It is NOT because it makes the engines last longer. It actually causes a lot more long term wear on the engine to run with a much thinner, less protective oil.
Oil viscosity is a trade off between overall operating protection, parasitic drag, and start up flowability. (since most wear occurs at startup!)



Please get your facts straight because this thread is already chalked full with enough blatantly ignorant posts.

--------------------
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!

It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.

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gearhead98
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 1145
Loc: Durham NC
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658440 (Re: DemonSVT) 07/07/04 06:47 PM

other post

read my last post

--------------------
98.5 Black SE ATX
S&B filter, SVT MAF, optimized SVT TB, mesh grille, removed orange reflectors, painted rear reflector, gutted pre-cats, optimized SVT LIM, 19lb injectors, resonator removed

cant afford an svt but lookin for 1 in nc

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00SVTGA
CEG'er

Reged: 03/05/04
Posts: 288
Loc: Gwinnett , Ga
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658506 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 07:42 PM



Once upon a time the motor in my 2000 svt locked up , due to plastic water pump .so i got a factory remanufactured long block from ford with the 3year/36K warranty.so i figure while i have a brand spanking new motor this would be a good time to switch to synthetic.

so on my third oil change i filled it up with 6 quarts of
castrol synthetic 5w30 weight as stated in the manual.oh yea the manual says you don't need synthetic in the svt but if you want to change to synthetic after the 6K break in period your more than welcome to but it doesn't require it.

anyway so about 1000 miles i check my fliuds and notice the engine is two quarts low.so i figure its a new motor and first time for synthetic to maybe it normal.on my forth oil change i again use 6 quarts of castrol synthetic 5w30.

i change my oil every 3000 miles because i'm a nut. i know you can get more miles out of every oil change but changing the oil on a regular basis is the key i believe.

so after 6 quarts on my forth oil change i check the motor after another 1000 miles and again 2 quarts low. where does this oil go ??? anyway i have since switch back to regular dino oil i get from the dealer when i get it changed.

with the regular 5w30 ford motor even after 3000 i lose less than a quarter of a quart.

Keeping it dino and changing it religously.


2000 silver frost svt
---------------------
yokohama AVS ES100's 225-45-16
optimized t/b,half shaft removed,shaved & polished butterfly
K&N ru-3530,KKM adapter, rubbermiad bread box heatshield
mufflers removed replaced with straight pipes & 3" tips
white hvac overlays
roush shift knob
- meguiar's gold class -

--------------------
-2000 csvt silver frost #1619
-magnaflow 14415
-optimized T/B & y-pipe
-superchips xgt1
-75mm proflow maf
-K&N RU-3530
-fsvt smart pump # 354Z-9H307-BC
-spec stage one, LSD
-low-tek,a/f,oil press.,volts
-B&M short shifter
-17" konig gt-r


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gearhead98
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 1145
Loc: Durham NC
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658510 (Re: 00SVTGA) 07/07/04 07:46 PM

man i never loose that much oil, good question where is all your synthetic going???

--------------------
98.5 Black SE ATX
S&B filter, SVT MAF, optimized SVT TB, mesh grille, removed orange reflectors, painted rear reflector, gutted pre-cats, optimized SVT LIM, 19lb injectors, resonator removed

cant afford an svt but lookin for 1 in nc

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BARTECH
CEG'er

Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658514 (Re: gearhead98) 07/07/04 07:53 PM

I used to use synthetic 5W30 oil...it seeped right through the lower gaskets! No such problem with regular 5W30.

--------------------
1998 Ford Contour GL Sport 2.5 V6 MTX in Black @ 322ks
BMW 335i = Lexus IS350 in your rearview mirror

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Roz 1999 SVT-C
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 11/13/02
Posts: 3506
Loc: San jose, Ca
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658520 (Re: BARTECH) 07/07/04 08:01 PM

Originally posted by BARTECH:
I used to use synthetic 5W30 oil...it seeped right through the lower gaskets! No such problem with regular 5W30.





The reason it seeped through (like stated above in previous posts) is becasue the leak was already present there....Dyno oil leaves deposits that can fill leaks.

Synthetic oil cleans out thoes deposits and makes the leaks noticeable...By not taking car of the leaks you can have a bigger problme later than now. people thinking that synthetic oil causes leak, is a common misconception.




Lupe

--------------------
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles

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TaurusKev
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 11/16/03
Posts: 3395
Loc: Hanover Park, Illinois, USA
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658600 (Re: Roz 1999 SVT-C) 07/07/04 09:00 PM

If it worked, why the hell did you change?

My car has been using all 10w-30 standard valvoline, and my engine runs strong... but i feel my timing off just a bit...

--------------------
Former owner of a 1995 Ford Contour GL w/ 2.0L ATX
Proud owner of a 2005 Ford Taurus SE 3.0L V6 Vulcan
--Looking for Commodore stuff (Drives, Units, Amiga, games, etc)If anyone has any of this laying around and wants it gone, lemme know --


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BARTECH
CEG'er

Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658603 (Re: Roz 1999 SVT-C) 07/07/04 09:08 PM







The reason it seeped through (like stated above in previous posts) is becasue the leak was already present there....Dyno oil leaves deposits that can fill leaks.

Synthetic oil cleans out thoes deposits and makes the leaks noticeable...By not taking car of the leaks you can have a bigger problme later than now. people thinking that synthetic oil causes leak, is a common misconception.




Lupe




Hmm I don't know who out there would think synthetic oil would cause a leak....but anyway...regular 5W30 oil is the way to go if You do have a leak of some sorts. I have a very small leak from the oil pan gasket. But it's so small that I don't see the oil level going down on the dipstick. Only when I was using 5W30 synthetic did I have to add 1/2 litre between oil changes.

--------------------
1998 Ford Contour GL Sport 2.5 V6 MTX in Black @ 322ks
BMW 335i = Lexus IS350 in your rearview mirror

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RogerB
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 10/21/00
Posts: 3867
Loc: Wichita, KS
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658620 (Re: BARTECH) 07/07/04 09:25 PM

I switched at 50k and never have leaked or lost oil.

Furthermore, I can now consider that my engine will look the same at 300k as it did at 50k. Ridiculous? Sure, because the rest of the car will probably not last that long, or I'll spin a bearing, or something else will go long before I hit that point. But meanwhile, the engine has scientifically proven better protection against oil failure.

But who cares about that? I also got a slight hp boost, and the engine runs smoother and cooler, and that's a benefit I don't have to wait 200,000 miles to appreciate.

--------------------
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE

"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998

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Roz 1999 SVT-C
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 11/13/02
Posts: 3506
Loc: San jose, Ca
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658629 (Re: BARTECH) 07/07/04 09:37 PM

Originally posted by BARTECH:






The reason it seeped through (like stated above in previous posts) is becasue the leak was already present there....Dyno oil leaves deposits that can fill leaks.

Synthetic oil cleans out thoes deposits and makes the leaks noticeable...By not taking car of the leaks you can have a bigger problme later than now. people thinking that synthetic oil causes leak, is a common misconception.




Lupe




Hmm I don't know who out there would think synthetic oil would cause a leak....but anyway...regular 5W30 oil is the way to go if You do have a leak of some sorts. I have a very small leak from the oil pan gasket. But it's so small that I don't see the oil level going down on the dipstick. Only when I was using 5W30 synthetic did I have to add 1/2 litre between oil changes.





Check out the archives if you get a chance...or do a search in the forums.
Iv have read many posts and corrected a few people that have stated that Synthetic caused there leasks...but like i said before its not true....people with that misconception are out there, as a few of my friends were one of them.

Lupe

--------------------
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles

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dnewma04
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty

Reged: 09/07/00
Posts: 4789
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658636 (Re: Roz 1999 SVT-C) 07/07/04 09:48 PM

Lupe,

It may not be the cause of the leak, but it can expose leaks that would not have shown up when using conventional oils. The end result is the same for those who did get leaking problems.

Before synthetic=no leak
after syn=leak

It doesn't matter what the cause is, the result is an oil leak.

--------------------
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg

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PlatoSVT
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 12/18/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Fort Collins, CO
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658659 (Re: dnewma04) 07/07/04 10:19 PM

Originally posted by dnewma04:
Lupe,

It may not be the cause of the leak, but it can expose leaks that would not have shown up when using conventional oils. The end result is the same for those who did get leaking problems.

Before synthetic=no leak
after syn=leak

It doesn't matter what the cause is, the result is an oil leak.




I'm going to have to disagree. I'd much rather see a leak caused/shown to me by switching to synthetics, than let a leak continue to get worse by staying with dino, and then eventually having a more expensive repair from a busted gasket/bad oil supply, or in worst case scenario, a blown engine. Maybe I'm thinking down the wrong track, but switching to synthetic is a smart move any way you look at it.

BTW, switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic at 55k, no problems.

--------------------
* Marine Officer Candidate *
My Cardomain Page

1998 EO Black SVTC #3388

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Roz 1999 SVT-C
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 11/13/02
Posts: 3506
Loc: San jose, Ca
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658673 (Re: dnewma04) 07/07/04 10:39 PM

Originally posted by dnewma04:
Lupe,

It may not be the cause of the leak, but it can expose leaks that would not have shown up when using conventional oils. The end result is the same for those who did get leaking problems.

Before synthetic=no leak
after syn=leak

It doesn't matter what the cause is, the result is an oil leak.





i know...thats what i was trying to explain above...the result is the same....but its not directly the cause of the problem...thats all im trying to get across.

personaly, if a leak occurs after you change synthetic, i would be glad i found it sooner rather than later....cause later it could be a lot worse then it actuall it.But thats me.

Lupe

--------------------
3.0 SVT hybrid...all the fixens...Track/Race ready very soon!!!!!! 20,000 + miles

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contourGL1996
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 06/22/03
Posts: 504
Loc: Binghamton, NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658787 (Re: Roz 1999 SVT-C) 07/08/04 01:18 AM

Well, i just switched back to 10w-30 regular oil. Hopefully it'll at least lessen the problem. I've figured out though it only comes out the breather when I accelerate hard. I can drive however fast but as soon as i accelerate too quick, oil shoots out the breather.

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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BSOELMAN
CEG'er

Reged: 12/11/03
Posts: 338
Loc: Grand Rapids MI
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658809 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/08/04 01:49 AM

You have a blowby issue starting. with the conventional oil your piston ring had become coked with oil residue. the cleaning action of the synthetic cleared out the coking and freed up your piston rings resulting in a loss of compressing and rise in blowby. When you acclerate the pressures inside the combustion chambers goes up and more goes by the rings and then out of the breather. my 95 stique had 92k on it when I put in a used motor with 42k on it. I have since then been using valvoline synthetic 5w30 with no prblems. I now have 131k on it never uses a drop.

--------------------
95 mystique daily driver
96 mystique parts car
95 contour 3.0L oval port swap in the works

check my classified ad

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Kremithefrog
I have no life

Reged: 05/14/02
Posts: 21653
Loc: Albany, Georgia
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#658836 (Re: BSOELMAN) 07/08/04 02:19 AM

To further elaborate on my changing to mobil1 at 83k miles: I have had no burning/loss of oil with changing. The engine also seemed to run a bit better when I changed but that could be because I went from 10w-30 to 5w-30. I also go on much longer intervals than 3k miles. The oil stays noticeably cleaner and has been scientifically proven to break down less. I also feel with as hot as the zetec runs, running synthetic helps to prolong its life. Same thing goes for the cd4e, so I run mobil1 atf in it. Of course if the engine isn't in good condition, results are not gonna be the same, even on a nearly new engine, if the piston rings didn't get broken-in correctly, then leaks/oil usage could occur.

--------------------
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)

FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater

CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15

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BARTECH
CEG'er

Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#659109 (Re: dnewma04) 07/08/04 12:08 PM

Originally posted by dnewma04:
Lupe,

It may not be the cause of the leak, but it can expose leaks that would not have shown up when using conventional oils. The end result is the same for those who did get leaking problems.

Before synthetic=no leak
after syn=leak

It doesn't matter what the cause is, the result is an oil leak.




That's what I meant Lupe At a mileage like mine You're better off with regular 5W30 anyways.

--------------------
1998 Ford Contour GL Sport 2.5 V6 MTX in Black @ 322ks
BMW 335i = Lexus IS350 in your rearview mirror

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Stryker
Zippy Zetec on his last legs.

Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 1262
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#659306 (Re: BARTECH) 07/08/04 04:47 PM

This is what Mr. Haines himself has to say on the subject. believe what you want, i trust him.

--------------------
Regards, Cole.

Relegating to troll status sometime this week.

New Whip: 1990 Lexus ES250.
Old Hotness: 1995 GL MTX Zetec *IN TRIAGE*

"I had a little friend once, but it dont move no more... "


Edited by Stryker (07/08/04 04:47 PM)

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mercman
CEG'er

Reged: 10/07/00
Posts: 463
Loc: Long Island NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#659675 (Re: Stryker) 07/09/04 01:10 AM

This post has been very entertaining.
And the winner is… BSOELMAN for correctly diagnosing your problem.

You have excessive crankcase pressure due to faulty rings and worn bores. The fact that the leakage increases under hard acceleration proves that. As for synthetic causing any of it no way…

It was caused by improper maintenance and the use of 20w 50 oil.

Until you get the bores honed and new rings I would recommend 5x 30 dino and an oil additive to seal the rings.

Also take it easy on the motor.

jeff


--------------------
have you fixed your ford lately?

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StealthWyvern
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 09/25/02
Posts: 1308
Loc: Atlantic Beach, FL
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#659702 (Re: AliasJerk™) 07/09/04 01:42 AM

Originally posted by AliasJerk:
You shouldnt ever switch to synthetic, a synthetic oil should ONLY be used from the start of the car, less then 10K miles. Or else it WILL leak. I Suggest you use a Synthetic BLEND, you can use that at any time, and you dont have to change as often , and it makes the engine run cooler preventing wear and making the engine last longer.


I switched to synthetic at 120k!

--------------------
97 Mystquie GS - I4 ATX died at 168K
94 Pontiac Crap AM SE - 2.3L I4 5spd
2002 Mazda Protege5 - 2.0L ATX

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dnewma04
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty

Reged: 09/07/00
Posts: 4789
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#659982 (Re: Stryker) 07/09/04 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Stryker:
This is what Mr. Haines himself has to say on the subject. believe what you want, i trust him.




Terry is a pretty knowledgeable automotive guy, but as far as I know, he is not an oil expert. I would say that it would be best to try to track down someone who is a bit more informed.

--------------------
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg

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Figols
CEG'er

Reged: 12/07/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Albany area, NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#660064 (Re: BSOELMAN) 07/09/04 02:35 PM

Guys, lets not forget about the PCV valve. Blow by can often be caused by a pluged up PCV valve. It may not by the source of your blow by problem, but if compression is normal, it's an often over looked place to start. Also check all of the PCV plumbing. I don't recall if yo mentioned if it's a Zetec you have chances are the PCV valve was never changed because it is in a BI**H of a place to get at(behind the exhaust manifold). I've seen it a few times with cars I bought from the auction. It's a cheap part to replace in anycase.

--------------------
Parting out 95-97 Contours/Mystiques. Contact me directly at ALFIGOLS@yahoo.com if you're looking for a particular part.

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contourGL1996
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 06/22/03
Posts: 504
Loc: Binghamton, NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#660102 (Re: Figols) 07/09/04 03:10 PM

Well, i already replaced the PCV valve with no avail. How much are the piston rings gonna cost me if i decide to fix it?

--------------------
"Here's a mirror, see your stupid face!"

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Stryker
Zippy Zetec on his last legs.

Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 1262
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#660155 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/09/04 03:59 PM

alot, but if you can do a headgasket, you cando the rings...i would say for 150-200. if you pay to have it done, scrap the car (send it to me)...and buy another...it wont be worth it


EDIT (this is all providing you have a zetec)

--------------------
Regards, Cole.

Relegating to troll status sometime this week.

New Whip: 1990 Lexus ES250.
Old Hotness: 1995 GL MTX Zetec *IN TRIAGE*

"I had a little friend once, but it dont move no more... "


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Figols
CEG'er

Reged: 12/07/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Albany area, NY
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#660389 (Re: contourGL1996) 07/09/04 08:19 PM

Even if you've changed the PCV valve you need to check ALL of the associated plumbing. The hoses on the engine side(as opposed to the air intake side)can get sludged up or blocked with carbon. I've seen it a number of times.

Also, if the PCV system isn't the trouble, don't just assume that a set of rings will fix it. You need to do a compression check first. If you have enough blow by to push out that much oil then there is a possibility that you have a broken ring or two, a damaged piston, damaged cylinder bore, bent or otherwise damaged valve, etc.. A compression check will tell you more(but not everything). Keep in mind too that a broken ring will scratch up a cylinder wall enough to need boring. It's not just as simple as removing the old and installing the new. In addition, a broken ring will also wear the ring gap of the piston requiring the piston to be replaced.

If you have good, even compression on all cylinders then I would lean towards the PCV or breather side(also check the TB for plugged vaccumm ports). Seeing how it's worse with the synthetic I would normally lean more towards worn rings, but typically you would get a rough running engine if you were blowing out that much oil. That's whats throwing me off here a little.

In the end if it's something major, with the miles you have you're better off replacing the engine with a lower mileage one. They're a dime a dozen and will cost you much less that a rebuild. Especially if you're never done an enginerebuild before(you never mentioned your mechanical ability).

Good luck!

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Parting out 95-97 Contours/Mystiques. Contact me directly at ALFIGOLS@yahoo.com if you're looking for a particular part.

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Posts: 1262
Re: NEVER SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC! new
#660413 (Re: Figols) 07/09/04 09:02 PM

what i would do, (if i were in you shoes...thankfully im not) is buy a low mileage used engine. keep this one as a backup. having an extra engine to tinker with is an excellent way to learn about whichever car you drive...i intend to do this if the need ever arises.

--------------------
Regards, Cole.

Relegating to troll status sometime this week.

New Whip: 1990 Lexus ES250.
Old Hotness: 1995 GL MTX Zetec *IN TRIAGE*

"I had a little friend once, but it dont move no more... "


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