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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Car died, have run some checks, PCM next?
#1293334 - 08/04/06 01:03 AM

Patient is '98 SVT E0 w/ 140,000 miles. Been great car but nothing lasts forever.

Died at 60mph during long highway trip. Cranks but won't fire. CEL is lit both with switch on and when cranking. No pump noise, no pressure behind releif valve. Fuses and relays OK, gets power to harnesss at pump, so, new fuel pump.

Wrong. "Power" was only 6 volts. Jumper across relay does kick pump into action. Should have tried that first. Well, pump replacement would have been needed soon anyway. Onwards.

Relay not getting low side signal. Got code reader and it cannot communicate with PCM. Harnesses and grounds seem to be OK but I'll be looking closer.

Anything else to check before replacing PCM?

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293351 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/04/06 01:33 AM

Try a few more times on the code reader. I have on occassions made mistakes with the code reader and got "communicate with PCM" messages. 1) Loose connection and 2) Forgot to turn ignition to on . If you confirm those are not the problem, check Crankshaft Position sensor (CKP) and Camshaft Position sensor (CMP).

CKP and CMP locations for V6
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=trouble&Number=738657&Forum=trouble&Words=p0340&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=728603&Search=true#Post738657

Edit. Ignition Coil pack
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1b/c4/02/0900823d801bc402.jsp

and of course, check wiring harness. The last CEGer who had no start issues and wiring problems had the issue being the TPS wiring.

--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


Edited by Tony2005 (08/04/06 01:43 AM)

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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293449 (Re: Tony2005) 08/04/06 04:08 AM

Attempted to scan for codes a dozen times. Key is on at the appropriate time. Both my laptop setup as well as the rented scanner come up empty.

Symptoms (no fuel, no spark, no PCM diagnostis) seem similar to what others have seen with short and blown fuse #4 on PCM power. My fuse is good. Grounds at battery terminal plate are clean. Could this be a break in a ground wire?

Leads to TPS, crank and cam sensors look good. Are there voltage or continuity checks to make before swapping these out?

Even if all these sensors were bad wouldn't I still get codes?

Thanks for the guidance.

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293459 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/04/06 04:22 AM

If you suspect wires, I suggest check the harness and connectors under the Passenger Compartment Fuse box under the dash, left of steering column as well as connectors under the Power Distribution Box (Battery Junction Box BJB)next to the battery.

Those have been known to give problems.

Edit. Passenger compartment fuse box (Central Junction Box CJB)
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=trouble&Number=1056473&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

Also check black wire which goes under battery.
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=trouble&Number=47010&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


Edited by Tony2005 (08/04/06 04:54 AM)

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projectSHO89
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 09/19/02
Posts: 1788
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293527 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/04/06 12:36 PM

Several things to check:

The DLC (Data Link Connctor) has to supply battery voltage on pin 16 (Key On) to the scan tool and grounds on pins 4 & 5 of the DLC. Check these first. Loss of power will cause a "no communication" message on most scanners. Pin 16 is supplied by either Fuse F24 or F28 in the underdash fusebox depending on date of manuafacture. On laeter productions, F24 also supplies power to brake light switch for the stop lamps. On early production, F28 supplies pin 16 and the power seat module, if present.

Assuming a return style fuel system, the fuel pump is supplied by the fuel pump relay in the underhood fuse box. High side coil power is supplied via the NO contacts of the PCM POWER relay. Low side is controlled by the PCM and may be jumpered to ground to test relay and pump power function when the PCM RELAY is energized.

Check IGN ground to battery ground at the TPS. Check Vref at the TPS.

Steve


--------------------
98 Contour SE Sport 2.5 Duratec ATX The wifey's car
89 Taurus SHO - 246K miles
94 SHO ATX - 190K
1997 F-150 5.4L ATX - The Workhorse 150K.


ANY THREAD WITH "OMG" or "WTF" ETC IN THE TITLE WILL BE IGNORED!

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Ex-Mean'Tour
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 1593
Loc: Massachusetts
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293552 (Re: Tony2005) 08/04/06 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Tony2005:
Try a few more times on the code reader. I have on occassions made mistakes with the code reader and got "communicate with PCM" messages. 1) Loose connection and 2) Forgot to turn ignition to on . If you confirm those are not the problem, check Crankshaft Position sensor (CKP) and Camshaft Position sensor (CMP).

CKP and CMP locations for V6
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=trouble&Number=738657&Forum=trouble&Words=p0340&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=728603&Search=true#Post738657

Edit. Ignition Coil pack
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1b/c4/02/0900823d801bc402.jsp

and of course, check wiring harness. The last CEGer who had no start issues and wiring problems had the issue being the TPS wiring.




That was me. I would suggest checking all the wiring for these various sensors as well.

If you end up needing a PCM let me know as I have a new remanufactured one I got stuck with from the Ford dealer. Installed once for a few minutes is all. I'm not sure if it would work for you, but it might. A Dealer could let you know. It's part number # WU72 12A650 SB

--------------------
MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats
Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4


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CSVT1214
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 4051
Loc: Plainville, CT
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293555 (Re: Ex-Mean'Tour) 08/04/06 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Ex-Mean'Tour:
If you end up needing a PCM let me know as I have a new remanufactured one I got stuck with from the Ford dealer. Installed once for a few minutes is all. I'm not sure if it would work for you, but it might. A Dealer could let you know. It's part number # WU72 12A650 SB





That won't work for him. A 98 E0 SVT has a ECU code of RJL1, and since yours was not for a SVT, it won't run correctly.

--------------------
Tony

1998 SVT Contour (B/MB) #542 3L
1998 SVT Contour (SF/MB) #1266 parts car
2000 SVT Contour (SF/MB) #1533 3L swap to begin!

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Ex-Mean'Tour
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 1593
Loc: Massachusetts
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293628 (Re: CSVT1214) 08/04/06 03:31 PM

Originally posted by CSVT1214:
Originally posted by Ex-Mean'Tour:
If you end up needing a PCM let me know as I have a new remanufactured one I got stuck with from the Ford dealer. Installed once for a few minutes is all. I'm not sure if it would work for you, but it might. A Dealer could let you know. It's part number # WU72 12A650 SB





That won't work for him. A 98 E0 SVT has a ECU code of RJL1, and since yours was not for a SVT, it won't run correctly.




Shhhh, don't tell him. I need to get rid of this POS I'm tired of seeing it.

--------------------
MUST SELL - ECM computer new for a 98 V6 mtx + pats
Now trolling in a Red Nissan 4 x 4


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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293972 (Re: Tony2005) 08/05/06 12:41 AM

Tony,

Further harness checks have revealed PCM harness worn through sheath and insulation on two wires. This happened where the harness squeezes between engine lift hook and A/C tube. When she went down it was a hot day, A/C full on, heavy condensation, wet and bare aluminum on copper. Bad combination.

The A/C tube does not test out to be grounded so these two wires only shorted to each other. Players are:

Pin 90, 7-PC28 (Yellow)
feeds TPS, fuel tank press. transducer, exhaust pressure transducer (didn't know we had that)

Pin 97, 95-OC28A (green/yellow) seems to be one of several parallel feeds to PCM relay. Can't quite decipher what it does.

Would the combination of these two cause PCM failure?

After a good clean and re-wrap we'll see if this is the problem or just an incidental find along the way.

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1293977 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/05/06 12:55 AM

"Would the combination of these two cause PCM failure?"
Yes, wiring harness shorting out has been known to do that.....

... but I would check fuses and relays first.

In addition, according to Chilton...

...the 1998, 1999 SVT Pin 90 goes to reference voltage and is <0.050 V at hot idle.

and Pin 97 is Vehicle Power and at hot idle is 12 to 14 V.

Now would be an excellent time for F111D F to chime in with his technical assessment.

Yes, let's try these first, you can't lose at this point. If it doesn't work, then you can consider a new PCM.

Edit. TPS Signal is Pin 89 and at hot idle should be 0.53 to 1.27 V.

--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


Edited by Tony2005 (08/05/06 01:04 AM)

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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294048 (Re: Tony2005) 08/05/06 03:08 AM

Ouch. Full voltage to componenets set to handle 50 millivolts can't be good.

Bare wires are now insulated, rewrapped, with extra piece of rubber hose for harness protection.

No difference in status or operation but at least I have some confidence that new items installed won't fry for the same reasons.

Checks continuing.

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294185 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/05/06 03:53 PM

More checks, more questions.

Looking at the wiring diagram, it appears PCM relay activation should trigger fuel pump relay. Right now, PCM relay triggers, fuel pump relay doesn't and that had me wondering.

Continuity checks show high resistance (3-4 Kohms) between PCM relay high side output(pin 5) and fuel relay low side input (pin#2).

Diagram shows should be solid connection.

Any tips on how to open up the battery junction box?

Also, someone stated ref voltage on TPS was <0.050 v??? Books say 5.0v, I got 3.



--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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eepals
CEG'er

Reged: 03/05/02
Posts: 496
Loc: NJ
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294191 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/05/06 04:11 PM

Originally posted by cj leadfoot:


Any tips on how to open up the battery junction box?





http://www.contour.org/FAQ/recall/99M03/
Scroll down to "Power Distribution Harness Overlay Installion"

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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294225 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/05/06 05:42 PM

Originally posted by cj leadfoot:
...Also, someone stated ref voltage on TPS was <0.050 v??? Books say 5.0v, I got 3.






I am so sorry. I misread one row down. 1998, 1999 SVT Pin 90 Yellow wire for Reference Voltage has 4.9 to 5.1 V at hot idle.

The TPS Signal Pin 89 White wire as posted earlier should be 0.53 to 1.27 V at hot idle.


--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


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F111D F
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294471 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/06/06 02:56 AM

First of all my condolences! This must be from that clamp on the pwr steering line. I remember years ago a warning about turning that clamp away from the harness.
This is like being in the middle of a fire-fight while your ducking your praying and trying figure which ways up. Patience if that's possible, I know it's not for me anymore.

Yes I've being chasing around the Ford CD, Pin 97 was not a good to have 12+. I've got to find a better wiring diagram to try and troubleshoot with. The Pats is in the middle of this, the PCM provides a ground to the coil of the Fuel pump relay and I"m trying to understand all the fuses F11 is connected to F14 (both BJB) when the the fuel pump relay operates?????????? There a few more I've got the find a more complete diagrams!!!!!!!!!!Just found my Chilton's it's doesn't show a direct connection bewteen fuses or the realys???

Which fuses blew? I'll be looking, unfortunately tomorrow I might not get time to turn on the computer.


Paul

Oh by the way Tony this is not someting I going to try and re-create on my Mistakes!

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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F111D F
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294630 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/06/06 03:09 PM

The first thing I would do is try prove that voltage is getting to the PCM when the key turn on. Ford does have a break-out box (know any Ford mechanics?) not sure if all dealers have one? IT series in between the PCM and the cable.
I'm not sure if unplugging the connector and looking the proper pin or pins (connector cable end)will work.
Anyone heard from "horsedug"? I think he has actual wiring diagrams he use to work from????

This working for what's on the CD is joke!!!
Something else would to swap out the relays (after do your visuals on the BJB wiring), I just when to my local junk yard and they let go out looking for caliper brackets for my possible 278 rotor upgrade. I cleaned out the BJB from a 2000 Cougar. If your really ambitious swap out the haranesses! Sorry bad joke. I hate to think what a nightmare that could be?

You could try a PCM from the junk yard, not sure how many different "Tear Tag codes" would work on your vintage?

I'm still searching Later
Paul

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

Edited by F111D F (08/06/06 03:17 PM)

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F111D F
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Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294658 (Re: F111D F) 08/06/06 05:02 PM

Ok never mind the break out box "CJ", (Yes Tony I'm tearing into the 08/98 that's my spare back-up! This "ORF" can barely afford one vehicle on the road.)
I see that the cover pops off the amphenol and is number on the wiring side. Now to find a fine wire probe?
Looks like pin 71 should battery voltage and pin 90 is 5vdc???

Copying off this CD is not easy. Check your PM.

Paul

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294691 (Re: F111D F) 08/06/06 06:45 PM

LOL. Spare back up as in parts car or back up driving vehicle?

Yes, 1998, 1999 SVT Pin 71 Green/Yellow is Vehicle Power and at hot idle is 12 to 14 V. And Pin 90 Yellow is Reference Voltage and at hot idle is 4.9 to 5.1 V.

The cheapest B.O.B. I have seen on the market is about $600.

Edit. Amphenol? As in PCM wiring connector? Speak English please.

Horseydug hasn't posted in 2 years. This appears to be the last time he posted.
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=trouble&Number=715450&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


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F111D F
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294770 (Re: Tony2005) 08/06/06 10:04 PM

Thanks Tony

Before I forget again I ran into another diagram, besides pin 71 it shows pin 97 connected to the output of PCM relay? Battery VDC ATX or MTX both .

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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F111D F
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294829 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/06/06 11:36 PM

Yes should be continuity between same as shorting the leads together.(Continuity checks show high resistance (3-4 Kohms) between PCM relay high side output(pin 5) and fuel relay low side input (pin#2)

Actual live test.
Paul

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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Tony2005
Addicted CEG'er

Reged: 06/19/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: Virginia, USA
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294846 (Re: F111D F) 08/06/06 11:55 PM

Originally posted by F111D F:
..Before I forget again I ran into another diagram, besides pin 71 it shows pin 97 connected to the output of PCM relay? ....




Yes, Pin 97 is also Green/Yellow for Vehicle Power and is 12 to 14 V at hot idle.

--------------------
"Always do the cheap and easy ones first."

1996 V6 ATX 96K miles


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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1294958 (Re: Tony2005) 08/07/06 02:28 AM

Paul and Tony,

To answer some or your questions,
- NO fuses blew. Wish at least one had.
- I believe PCM does get power. Relay kicks in and check engine light illuminates both when ignition on and when cranking. With relay pulled, no light.
- From what I can tell, PCM is getting inputs but not sending much down the line.

My trip through the battery junction box was a good learning experience but not helpful to the problem. Seems relay terminal assignments 3&5(high side in/out) are reversed from what the official Ford electrical troubleshooting manual states. Not a functional issue but it helps to know which wire you're probing. Once I started checking the right wires the problem I was chasing was no longer an issue.

I appreciate all your help. As much as I detest "try it and see" approach, that is where I'm headed next. New PCM and then we'll see.

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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F111D F
Veteran CEG'er

Reged: 05/27/00
Posts: 635
Loc: Lucas,Ohio
Re: Car died, have run some checks, PCM next? new
#1295247 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/07/06 03:43 PM

I've a magic rubber mallet!
Paul

--------------------
Paul
98 Mystique LS 2ea (07/97)(08/98)

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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Wrap-up new
#1298825 (Re: F111D F) 08/11/06 10:49 PM

Cheers all around! After slapping in the new PCM we are back in business.

Thanks to all who pointed me down the right path.

My freindly Ford counterman mentioned that at some point, these will no longer be serviced by Ford. What then for us SVT guys? The NAPAs and Autozones didn't cover our low volume application. Can a standard Countour PCM be reflashed to cover SVT calibration?

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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FavoriteMystaque
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 10/17/04
Posts: 1456
Re: Wrap-up new
#1298851 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/11/06 11:36 PM

Glad the PCM fixed it. Did your car have the PATS key?

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cj leadfoot
New CEG'er

Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 13
Loc: Commerce, MI
Re: Wrap-up new
#1298923 (Re: FavoriteMystaque) 08/12/06 01:44 AM

Yes, it has the PATS key. If I understand an earlier thread correctly, later versions require the security system to be reprogramed at the dealer after extended absence of battery power. Not a problem for my humble E0.

--------------------
silver '98 E0
bone stock except
225/60 -16's on 16 x 7's (45 et)


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FavoriteMystaque
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 10/17/04
Posts: 1456
Re: Wrap-up new
#1299389 (Re: cj leadfoot) 08/12/06 11:09 PM

I have a 1998 Mystique with PATS, and it's an early 1998, if (when) I need a PCM it might be straightforward to replace.

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