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Modifications >> Brakes

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RaraAdministrator
"Absolut Rara."

Reged: 09/09/00
Posts: 3223
Loc: Westland, MI
Re: Bracket for FSVT rotors and CSVT stuff is doab new
#1091614 (Re: warmonger) 11/02/05 03:16 PM

hey, warmonger, thanks man, I can feel the love . . .



--------------------
Balance is the Key.

rarasvt@comcast.net

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warmonger
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 08/16/01
Posts: 5810
Loc: Ozark, AL
Re: Bracket for FSVT rotors and CSVT stuff is doab new
#1091905 (Re: Rara) 11/02/05 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Rara:
hey, warmonger, thanks man, I can feel the love . . .





Not sure if that is a 'real' thanks or because you thought my last comment was directed at you. I didn't mean anything to you by that about the front brakes, my last comment had nothing to do with the caliper bracket issue.

But if you mean that for me saying that 'I stand corrected', then cool.

I am just a little poor at giving you a direct compliment . By getting back on here and admitting you were right all along....two years ago.... ...well you know. At least I'm willing to admit it.

I was going through fits on brakes and ready to drop a wad on the TCE kit. But then after running into all kinds of fitment issues because I have the FSVT wheels....$1700 just wasn't worth the headaches. I didn't want to spend money on wheels again either. So I decided worst case I'd get FSVT rotors and play around and see for myself. THen if it wouldn't work I'd just carry on and get the calipers since everyone is saying how well the fsvt brakes are working. That way I wouldn't waste any money and I'd see just for myself. So now I just went ahead and have the calipers ordered from Bill J.
I thought I had a good plan and spent an extra $50 constructing the bracket and spacers and I got it together on this extra hub I have on my bench. But I had to do too much modifying and with the fronts I didn't feel safe. At least now I have the details for my rear brakes all worked out.


--------------------
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black

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RaraAdministrator
"Absolut Rara."

Reged: 09/09/00
Posts: 3223
Loc: Westland, MI
Re: Bracket for FSVT rotors and CSVT stuff is doab new
#1092003 (Re: warmonger) 11/02/05 09:14 PM

lol, sort of a backhanded dig because you didn't trust my work . . . no hard feelings, just hassling you.

A little birdy mentioned what you have put together for the rears . . . just be careful with rear bias, lol. I'd definately use a low friction pad on those to try to keep the balance somewhere in the ballpark at least.

--------------------
Balance is the Key.

rarasvt@comcast.net

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warmonger
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 08/16/01
Posts: 5810
Loc: Ozark, AL
Re: Bracket for FSVT rotors and CSVT stuff is doab new
#1092138 (Re: Rara) 11/02/05 11:03 PM

Hmmm. Are the stock pads low friction enough, or the bendix rears?

--------------------
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black

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tropictour
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 08/09/04
Posts: 1238
Loc: Renton, WA
Re: Bracket for FSVT rotors and CSVT stuff is doab new
#1092217 (Re: warmonger) 11/03/05 01:08 AM

What about installing a proportioning valve?
-tropictour

--------------------
2000 Contour SVT
Tropic Green
SHO Shop CAI
Bassani
1999 Contour SE
BAT Kit



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DemonSVT
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 09/13/00
Posts: 9602
Loc: KC, MO
Changing bias works both ways. new
#1092380 (Re: Rara) 11/03/05 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Rara:
lol, sort of a backhanded dig because you didn't trust my work . . . no hard feelings, just hassling you.

A little birdy mentioned what you have put together for the rears . . . just be careful with rear bias, lol. I'd definately use a low friction pad on those to try to keep the balance somewhere in the ballpark at least.



He also will be running the 300mm front rotors. Those and the more aggressive front pads will easily offset the marginal improvement in rear braking ability.

What's horrible is people only doing fronts. That throws off the bias and the overall balance of the car tremendously. Why is it nobody is harping on them for destroying the stock bias or it being dangerous because of it?

If you want to get technical even just changing the front pads to an aggressive mix changes the bias.

--------------------
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!

It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.

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Todd TCE
CEG'er

Reged: 03/19/02
Posts: 337
Re: Changing bias works both ways. new
#1092497 (Re: DemonSVT) 11/03/05 02:35 PM

Originally posted by DemonSVT:


What's horrible is people only doing fronts. That throws off the bias and the overall balance of the car tremendously. Why is it nobody is harping on them for destroying the stock bias or it being dangerous because of it?

If you want to get technical even just changing the front pads to an aggressive mix changes the bias.





That's not completely correct. You're assuming the fit of a front kit will grossly over bias the front brakes. I'll agree that pairing a front and rear of specific sizing has its benefits.

Yes pads alone can alter the % by more than most folks think. But adding front bias is in no way going to be "dangerous".

In the spirit of the often quoted ST wite pages....adding some rear bias can often improve the cars total braking performance. *Note however that not all their kits really do that as I was chuckling a bit at one of them recently on a platform cited to be such- it's not. Anyhow...when you consider that most folks take 'braking improvements' to mean both firmer pedal (wrongly assumed) and high speed braking you are actually speaking of dynamic braking, not the common reference to static bias.

Using some simple numbers like 75/25 (not uncommon on a FWD car) you'd assume that making this 65/35 would be far better. And in some slow speed cases you'd be right. However under high speed stops where weight shif is greater you'd be over working the fronts. They still do the job but take far more pressure input to get the job done. Assuming you might pull 1.2G under hard braking you might want to consider 77/23 for example. Where the fronts keep pace with the required braking.

My point is that you can't really over brake the front of the car and be dangerous. Within some common sense levels at least. I'm not suggesting one massive front kit with no rears.

For the most part the TCE white pages subscribe to the simple theory of 'larger rotor, less piston area, tune with pad'. This formula permits the fronts attain torque with leverage, firm up the pedal, and require a bit more input pressure to keep pace. The pad selection can then ramp up the required front torque to keep pace with the weight shift. By my notes the Contour requires nearly identical leg pressure on a 13"/6pot as the stock brakes. And the bias is within 2.5% of stock. Under hard braking however when fit with good pads; the stock brakes require 80# of leg where the above kit requires only 60# to achieve the same rotor torque. In this case the rear line pressure on the stock brakes is 541psi, the 13" kit has a rear line pressure of only 406. Depending upon the knee point of the stock prop valve the stock parts are probably shut down completely and the BBK still keeping modest pressure to compliment the front kit. Which one do you think is going to provide a more stable brake platform?

Let's consider the 'bigger is better rear' proposal. For fun:
Front- stock caliper on 12" rotor
Rear- 2.125 piston on 11" rotor
Both with off the shelf .40Cf pads

How about a 61/39 bias? Not for me thank you. You'd need a good prop valve to reduce this rear bias as you mentioned. In fact, if my program is correct you'll have to drop the 541psi input down to a lowly 125psi to get to the same torque value as the 13" example with the race pads. Seeing that the valve allows for a max of about 50% you won't get there.....With half you'll net 77% front bias- still more than you'd be able to use under hard braking I suspect. So what do you do? Add mega front pads to the car. Fit a .55Cf pad to the stock caliper and you'll be at 84% again. Not bad, but like all the other kits you'll be right back to the rears being along for the ride! With full reduction at the valve. Go back to lower pressures and street use with this and you're at 68/32.

I'm not going to say you cannot make some of this work for you. But you're going to find the needs of static and dynamic braking moments are going to play hell with the idea. The idea of the prop valve is to tune it to conditions not use it as a driver aide every time you pull out of the driveway. And with much larger rear calipers we never got to pedal feel. Think long and soft.

Maybe I'm just rambling too much for you but it's worth some thought at least.

--------------------
Less Bling, more Zing
Todd/TCE
www.tceperformanceproducts.com

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TourDeForce
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 03/04/03
Posts: 7117
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL - Going to Jupiter someday
Re: Changing bias works both ways. new
#1092754 (Re: Todd TCE) 11/03/05 06:49 PM

If I put bigger brakes on front & bigger meats on the wheels, the rear is going to be lighter under hard braking. If I don't compensate (reduce) brake performance at the rear, I'm looking at possible rear lock-up on a non-ABS car. Therefore, I don't worry about the rears except to be certain I avoid rear lockup.

If you've got ABS, does it really matter?? You brake as hard as you need to & the wheels won't lock up, so you can pretty much bias things whatever way - within reason. The ABS system is pre-programmed for specific criteria... True??

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Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.

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RaraAdministrator
"Absolut Rara."

Reged: 09/09/00
Posts: 3223
Loc: Westland, MI
Re: Changing bias works both ways. new
#1093426 (Re: TourDeForce) 11/04/05 04:50 AM

Ditto what Todd said.

TourDeForce, your ABS module is only calibrated for peak performance with EXACTLY what comes on the car from the factory. Step too far with your changes, or the wrong way, and the ABS may not be able to compensate. And then there is always the question of what happens when you have an ABS failure? say a wheel speed sensor gets damaged . . . too much rear bias, and the car is grossly dangerous.

--------------------
Balance is the Key.

rarasvt@comcast.net

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RTStabler51
Hard-core CEG'er

Reged: 10/13/00
Posts: 6760
Loc: On the short bus
Re: Changing bias works both ways. new
#1093431 (Re: Rara) 11/04/05 04:54 AM

So, if you go to a Big Brake Kit (>Focus SVT) then should you disable ABS? Or is that only for 'extreme' circumstances?

--------------------
Ryan
Trollin!


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