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Optimal 3L Turbo Setup?

What you should also be looking at is can your motor and trans handle the estimated power output? Is the rest of the car up to taking said power as well? What is your suspension? Are you putting a sturdy diff in there? Any chassis stiffening mods? Roll cage? Have you picked and selected your turbo yet? Do you have ANY experience with building a turbocharged car at all?

This is not as simple as bolting on X turbo to Y motor, getting a tune and rolling with it... I mean you can do that but the car will last about a week if you're lucky...

No I do not have a 3L Contour. Yes I DO have experience with builds and turbos in general.
 
ScottyDsntKnow said:
What you should also be looking at is can your motor and trans handle the estimated power output? Is the rest of the car up to taking said power as well? What is your suspension? Are you putting a sturdy diff in there? Any chassis stiffening mods? Roll cage? Have you picked and selected your turbo yet? Do you have ANY experience with building a turbocharged car at all?

This is not as simple as bolting on X turbo to Y motor, getting a tune and rolling with it... I mean you can do that but the car will last about a week if you're lucky...

No I do not have a 3L Contour. Yes I DO have experience with builds and turbos in general.
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You haven't been here long, have you?
 
Rara said:
I still think that one of the best possible options, would be a max-extrude honed stock SVT intake setup into a split port head with 3.0L chambers and valves and retaining the IMRCs.
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You mean split port heads from a 2.5L retrofitted with 3L valves and opened up? or the earlier split port 3L heads without the waterpump pulley?

I almost have that setup. Instead I have the oval port heads PnP'ed from Kinger on NECO.
 
Heh, yeah, I'm new.

He was just saying it wasn't a basic bolt-on job, which it isn't, but it also isn't very hard when I'm just planning on buying a NPG kit. I'll have experienced supervisors and I'm not rushing into anything. I've planned ahead. The engine will be built as far as possible beforehand, and I've got a list of parts that'll go on at the same time as the swap (months before turbo-ing), which is roughly outlined in my thread in the SE section sub-forum.

On top of that, I'm following most of the build threads going on now as well as looking over all of the previous turbo and swap threads to date. I'm not going in blind, despite being... underexperienced, I guess you can say.

But all in all, this thread is about what 3L engine build would be the best for a NPG intercooled turbo-kit. Not about what else is going in my car.

Oh, and to answer your questions: Torsen Diff, BAT Euro Handling Kit, no rollcage seeing as I don't plan to stick it on the track and I don't want to destroy the car's inside. I haven't decided on any parts for added chassis rigidity yet aside from maybe a front strut brace, if that counts.
 
Epheron said:
Heh, yeah, I'm new.

He was just saying it wasn't a basic bolt-on job, which it isn't, but it also isn't very hard when I'm just planning on buying a NPG kit. I'll have experienced supervisors and I'm not rushing into anything. I've planned ahead. The engine will be built as far as possible beforehand, and I've got a list of parts that'll go on at the same time as the swap (months before turbo-ing), which is roughly outlined in my thread in the SE section sub-forum.

On top of that, I'm following most of the build threads going on now as well as looking over all of the previous turbo and swap threads to date. I'm not going in blind, despite being... underexperienced, I guess you can say.

But all in all, this thread is about what 3L engine build would be the best for a NPG intercooled turbo-kit. Not about what else is going in my car.

Oh, and to answer your questions: Torsen Diff, BAT Euro Handling Kit, no rollcage seeing as I don't plan to stick it on the track and I don't want to destroy the car's inside. I haven't decided on any parts for added chassis rigidity yet aside from maybe a front strut brace, if that counts.
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I was not trying to be an ass, I just can't count how many times on other forums I see people wanting to put a turbo on their car for more power but have no plans for fuel system, chassis rigidity(full length subframes at least btw), stronger internals for the engine AND trans etc... Good to see that you have a decent plan going at least.
 
Redlineracer12 said:
You mean split port heads from a 2.5L retrofitted with 3L valves and opened up? or the earlier split port 3L heads without the waterpump pulley?

I almost have that setup. Instead I have the oval port heads PnP'ed from Kinger on NECO.
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Either one to be honest. They both have thier downsides aside from the port geometry.
 
I think what you are looking for is something like this.

Assumptions: not going to forged internals, less than 315-320 top HP, want a setup you can feasibly complete yourself without breaking the bank, ability to trouble shoot in the future.

Now, I will state up-front that this is my opinion based on reading damn-near all posts in the Duratec V6 (NA and FI) for for the past 3 years and building and turboing the stock 2.5, and two 3Ls.

Block

I favor the 05 3L Block, first from an Escape, next from Taurus/Sable. They have the most revised piston ring lands, escape has most revised oil pan, both have cams that will work very well with a turbo setup. (I reused my SVT cams for max top-end power. In hindsight, I might keep the 3L cams so that I don't have to rev so high to max out.) I think both are fantastic options. Keep the 3L cams for added simplicity.

Intake Setup

Again, I favor port matching the 3L heads to the 2.5 intakes. Sure it is not 'optimal' as it messes with intake flow. But, you get to reinstall damn near everything in 'stock' form thereby eliminating a number of additional variables to an already complicated upgrade. Second, the NPG kit is designed to match with the stock 2.5 parts making installation of the kit easier.

If you go 3L intakes, you have to mess with fuel rail, secondaries, coilpack location, TB mods, vac line mods. Then, you have to install the cold side of the intercooler plumbing differently also. I am not saying 3L intakes are bad by any mears, or that the port matched is better. Just much more simple. I also find it a lot easier to trouble shoot and get the new beast dialed in when the look, location, and function of most components are familiar.

Also, I don't think there is enough data on turbo'd 3Ls with SVT intakes vs 3L intakes to say one makes more power than the other.

EGR/DPFE

I would keep these if you can, but I do not see any drawbacks if you do not. Both will keep emissions down and from what I have read EGR will lower cylindar temps. I have both EGR and DPFE eliminated. I have also read that many blow the DPFE rubber tubes off of the main EGR pipe under boost. So that can be a problem.


Turbo Size

Decide where you want your power to come on, how much you plan to max out at and share the info with Joey and/or Warmonger. They can be a great resource in sizing a turbo.

Lastly, don't skimp or rush through the tuning process. You will have spent tons of time and money building this thing, so don't blow-your-load early and start romping on the car until its ready. Either dyno tune with a wideband or have a wideband installed in the car to road-tune. EGT gauge is nice to have as well in the tuning process. Both will be able to give you a good look at how things are running and alert you to issues that can (and will) arise.

Look at the range of HP from turbo 3Ls to see what a difference tuning can make. Get it dialed in right and you should be able to enjoy it for much longer and hopefully with much less worry. Take Ray for example. His car has been run hard for years and is still ripping it up due to proper prep, tight build, and perfect tune.
 
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Hey, It is easy enough to drop the compression on your 2.5L heads if you want to go true hybrid. Enough metal can be removed to drop the compression well into the 9s.
Don't shy away from that as an option if you want to do this in baby steps.
You can have a great performing 3L hybrid then later boost it.
 
mixtape said:
Aren't the secondaries where the real power comes on? Why would you want to delete that? Or am I confusing terms? :shrug:
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well the straight 3L has power across the mid range. the secondaries where deisgned to make two hp and torque curves. you get a peak below and above ~4 krpm. but yes on a 2.5l when the secondaries open the engine comes alive.

that was my thinking, I like how the secondaries work, why get rid of them. I would believe that a constantly variable intake manifold would give you the optimal airflow for the given rpm that you are at. now of course the isn't feasable. so the secondaries give you two runner lengths which imho is better then one.

so the oval port might be better from a design and theory standpoint personally I don't like how it applies the power, but then again I can only base that on my parents 07 escape. I need to still drive a contour/cougar with a straight 3L.
 
You delete the secondaries on a forced induction application because you don't need them anymore and they wind up being an obstruction in the intake even if they were wired open. You also would NOT want them shutting on you accidentally under any sort of boost.

Turbo changes the entire complexion of the motor.
 
ScottyDsntKnow said:
You delete the secondaries on a forced induction application because you don't need them anymore and they wind up being an obstruction in the intake even if they were wired open. You also would NOT want them shutting on you accidentally under any sort of boost.

Turbo changes the entire complexion of the motor.
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i only partly agree. off the line they open before my turbo really spools up and I made ~300 hp. now on the highway the turbo will spool before the secondaries open and its noticable, that is the only down side I have found. otherwise it drive just like stock staying out of the boost.
 
BrApple said:
i only partly agree. off the line they open before my turbo really spools up and I made ~300 hp. now on the highway the turbo will spool before the secondaries open and its noticable, that is the only down side I have found. otherwise it drive just like stock staying out of the boost.
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The downside is that if they are closed when your turbo is spooling up like you say it is creating a ton of backpressure on that turbo and god forbid they ever stick closed and you try to really spin it up and it blows the turbo. Even if they never stick closed, not being open when the turbo is spooling into full boost is creating a pretty large roadblock for all the pressurized air, thus creating uncessary wear and tear on the turbo. Everyone I've ever seen/talked to in the SHO world removes them completely or wires them open at the very least. Besides, a properly selected turbo should be pretty well spooled by 2800 rpm and since they are still closed at that point they're costing you power off the line as well. Plus I guarantee that 300 hp you made was with them open so I don't see why you would even try to include that in your arguement.
 
actaully peak torque was just before and after the secondaries openned. peak hp was on the very top end because of the SVT cams.


ok I can see now that if the secondaries where not there the torque wouldn't dip when they open. but that is also what happens when the secondaries open.
 
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Rara said:
The stock SVT split-port manifold into an oval port head, either port-matched or with the NPG adaptor, is the least desirable (NPG adapter is much better than the port-matching though) but it is terribly convenient when putting the engine togther, and the downsides again can be largely downplayed with a little extra boost pressure to make up for less than ideal flow.
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You know I can't agree with where you were going with the first sentence. lol :D
Especially in a turbo application it is a moot point.
The real benefit lies in a very cheap, simple method to put the split port manifold assembly on ovalport heads without spending much more than a few dollars and minimizing the changes from the stock engine management system.
For NA applications there is less potential increase in torque below the IMRC point than a full split port has but it is still greater than the 2.5L it replaces and the IMRC still works to keep the torque higher below IMRC opening point than it does without the system installed. Let me summarize my points:

1. IMRC still operates on a split to oval head system, just not quite to the level of the full split port 3L.
2. Torque below IMRC point is still higher than 2.5L with IMRC
3. Torque above IMRC is unchanged
4. Does not require a new tune to delete anything and A/F ratios remain like stock.
5. Cost is WAY below our NPG LIM we offer.

Essentially there is no downside to this on a turbo at all, especially if you use the adapter plates and don't want to weld in the old injector valleys.
 
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