Resurrecting the dead: The Great Oil Debate XXII

[SoopaCooga]

Election Day is less than a month away, and I am due for an oil change, so let's practice polling by voting for your synthetic motor oil of choice for use in your force-fed Duratec.

To recap how people "voted" last time:
* Warmonger declares 5w30 good enough for even turbo owners
* DemonSVT stands by his use of 0w40 year-round
* A handful of knowledgeable folks vouch for 10w40.
* Various people suggest using the factory recommended 5w30 and 5w20
* Occasionally somebody gets the courage to ask, "Why not 20w50?"

To further assist you with being an informed voter, below is some Q&A with Mobil 1 and owners of performance vehicles:

Mobil1, I am the original owner of a 2004 Evo 2L turbo with 48,000 miles. I have been running Mobil 1 10W-30 all the way up to 40,000 miles. Then I switched to Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10W-30 just for the added protection. I change the oil every 2500 miles or less because I drive the car hard with a water/methanol assisted 30 psi boost. I have two questions:
1. Even though the owners [manual] and [factory service] manual strictly direct [owners] to use Mobil1 10W-30, would I be better off trying your new Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic product since my car is highly modified? I drive the car in a very hot and humid climate and get a lifter tick at times.
2. Am I wasting money using the Extended Performance product since I change my oil every 2000 - 2500 miles, or am I getting some benefit with the Extended Performance over the Mobil 1 equivalent at these intervals too? --Steve

Steve, for your high performance application, we would recommend you use either Mobil 1 15W-50 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50. The higher viscosity will provide better protection in conjunction with higher levels of anti-wear potentially needed with the turbo boost and severe operation and temperature. With your short change intervals, either product will still have adequate performance reserve remaining at oil drain. We need to mention that switching oils will cause you to give up some fuel economy, but we're assuming this may not be your highest priority. You may also want to switch back in the colder months to the 10W-30 for better low temperature flow and protection. --Mobil1

Mobil1, I have a supercharged 2001 BMW 330ci with 107,000 miles on it. It has always burned oil, even when new. Now, however, it burns a quart in only 650 miles. I was told I should have been using 15W-50 synthetic oil, but being in NJ, I was concerned that switching to a 15W-50 would be too thick for wintertime. Can I mix 0W-40 and 15W-50 in the winter for better protection, and use straight 15W-50 in the warmer months? The car is garaged year round, but sits outside at work during the day. --Alex

Alex, New Jersey has cold enough winters that we recommend you continue to use 0W-40 at least in the winter. In the spring, summer and fall you can use Mobil 1 15W-50 and see if this improves your oil consumption. If switching to the 15W-50 does not improve your oil consumption you may want to have your vehicle checked. You can also try Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 all year round. --Mobil1

Mobil1, I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6L modified, performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two, separate, racing-engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help? --Randy

Randy, the active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added through a compound called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification, the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications: 0w40, 5w50, and 15w50. --Mobil1

 

[morbid]

From what I've read, and heard in discussions, 50 weight should be used in FI'd engines. Once I install the turbo (the reason I didn't vote), I'm *planning* on running Mobil1 15-50.

Mobil 1 15W-50 exceeds warranty requirements for gasoline engines where an API certified oil is specified. It meets:

• API SM/SL
• Requirements for Diesel Powered Vehicles where an API CF or API CD is recommended
• Provides extra anti-wear additive for older vehicles

Mobil 1 15W-50 is formulated with SuperSyn, an extra-high viscosity synthetic fluid, plus extra anti-wear additive to provide extra protection for severe service applications such as towing, hauling and racing. Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for high performance vehicles including turbocharged and supercharged engines where a thicker oil film is desired.

Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles. Mobil 1 15W-50 will also provide better anti-wear protection for higher valve spring tensions in certain racing engines.

But.... I am curious about what others here run.

 

[Livinsvt]

I think your a ticking time bomb at 5w30. I personly broke the motor in on Kendall Gt1 20w50, but I currently use synthetic 10w40, I may go back to 20w50 if I am going to track it more, or if I even have the car.

 

[Rara]

First off, never use 5w20 or anything lighter. 5w20 is recommended by Ford for a small increase in fuel economy, at a cost to engine life. The engines still pass Ford's internal testing requirements, but the wear level is worse than with the previously recommended 5w30.

choosing the right oil weight is highly dependant on expected temps and loading, the higher your temps and bearing loading, the thicker the oil you need to use. The multi-viscosity indexes are mostly for protection during cold startup, so if you aren't running in cold weather, you don't need to go really low on the first number. Bearing clearances also have a big affect on oil weight choice. The larger the clearances, the thicker the oil.
For an NA duratec, I'd say 5w30 is ideal in the wintertime (for those of us that see snow) otherwise a 10w30 or even a 10w40 are good choices, with the 10w40 a better choice if you are in a hotter climate. As a reference, I run 10w60 in my M3 that revs to 8k rpm . . .

In an FI engine, your temps and bearing loads go up, and not by a small amount. I'd say a minimum of a 40, but 50 would be even better, with the cold index being decided by the weather conditions. In the cold winter, I'd say a 5w40 would be the minimum I would run, up to a 20w50 in very hot weather. Though, don't automatically jump to the heavy stuff, because if your average engine temps aren't high enough, the oil won't flow fast enough, and you may still have oiling issues. Try to keep your choices balanced.

So basically, once you start increasing loading significantly with a modified engine, its not a simple one-size-fits-all answer in regard to oil wieghts. Understand the differences between the weights, and understand what your engine needs, and choose the best fit for your circumstances. All that said, I'm voting for 0w20 just to ruin the poll

 

[BrApple]

all I can add is an observation from my car, but indeed want to know what would be best.

I am still running Mobil 1 sythetic 5w30 like stock. most of the time my oil temp stay right around 215. after a few pulls I have seen it reach ~230. the one time I pegged the oil temp guage was in the middle of summer in 90 degree, high hummidity and I made a number of back to back hard pulls on the highway.

after the first oil change the oil looked really dark, in a short time too.

So maybe a step up to 10w40 is in order.

 

[SoopaCooga]

Since I am still in the tuning process, I don't boost much, so I have been running full-synthetic 5w30 for the last year.

As Rara said above, when choosing a motor oil, a compromise is needed: the lube must be thick enough to prevent wear at higher temperatures but also be thin enough to circulate well. Old timers will recall the many threads about oil starvation resulting from oil not draining back from the heads.

This is why I didn't jump all over 15w50 even though it is touted as being appropriate for race applications. Plus winter is close upon us, and 15w won't protect the engine at cold startup. After reading the FAQ at the Mobil 1 website, I think the 0w40 is a good choice for the winter, and 15w50 would offer max protection in the summer at the expense of fuel economy. That said, I am not totally decided. I hope a few more folks will chime in here!

 

[Rara]

fwiw on the fuel economy front, the difference is still very small, probably less than 1 mpg difference between the thickest and thinnest choices. On a single engine the difference is basically negligable. Ford did it because when you have a 0.2 mpg improvement on 5 million vehicles, it buys you a LOT of CAFE credits, which means $$ for them.

 

[TRicker]

i'm sorry i went with 10W30 not realizing you were talking about boosted. i ran 10W30 of about every brand of synthetic oil in my first 2.5L engine, with a 100 shot of nitrous. that engine had tons of miles but it didnt burn anything or leak anything. after 3000 miles, the oil would come out light brown, not near black like my first 3L did after 100 miles. it was a nice engine, and with the nitrous it always ran good and i would say i ran mobil1 10W30 synthetic 75% of the time.

on my 3L's now, i run castrol syntec synthetic 10W30. it seems like a good oil, but its expensive. more expensive than the mobil1. as far as weight goes, i will be going up to a 10W40 next summer, as i plan to push the 3L with a really agressive tune that will see slightly higher rpm

 

[SoopaCooga]

i'm sorry i went with 10W30 not realizing you were talking about boosted. on my 3L's now, i run castrol syntec synthetic 10W30. it seems like a good oil, but its expensive. more expensive than the mobil1. as far as weight goes, i will be going up to a 10W40 next summer, as i plan to push the 3L with a really agressive tune that will see slightly higher rpm

thanks for the background on your vote! you can update it if you like, and even vote for both 10w30 and 10w40 if you think they are both appropriate.

 

[gotapex]

I use 5w20 or 5w30 on mine. Functionally, the two oils are very similar, at least for Mobil 1 and Redline (both are very very high weight 20's on the 5w20 and very low weight 30's on the 5w30).

As it stands, my engine is still producing only about 515 rwhp (just shy of 600 to the crank), and I don't rev past 7500rpm. Given the build tolerances and the design of this Duratec powerplant, I don't plan on going to 5w40 unless I go over 700hp to the crank (and go with a freer flowing filter, etc).

 

[SoopaCooga]

I use 5w20 or 5w30 on mine. Functionally, the two oils are very similar, at least for Mobil 1 and Redline (both are very very high weight 20's on the 5w20 and very low weight 30's on the 5w30).

As it stands, my engine is still producing only about 515 rwhp (just shy of 600 to the crank), and I don't rev past 7500rpm. Given the build tolerances and the design of this Duratec powerplant, I don't plan on going to 5w40 unless I go over 700hp to the crank (and go with a freer flowing filter, etc).

how often does your motor burn off a quart? if it regularly burns off a quart you might move to a heavier oil. what are you driving with 515 rwhp?!? although i've seen it mentioned before, build tolerances don't appear to be a significant factor.

 

[gotapex]

how often does your motor burn off a quart? if it regularly burns off a quart you might move to a heavier oil. what are you driving with 515 rwhp?!? although i've seen it mentioned before, build tolerances don't appear to be a significant factor.

The only time my motor burned off a significant amount of oil was when a poorly placed oil line to the rear turbo rubbed through some shielding. It burned off more than 3 quarts in roughly 2 minutes. :nonono: Other than that, it doesn't really eat oil. The Duratec is pretty impressive.

It's a surprisingly tightly built engine. Believe me, the thing is run hard too, since it's fed by relatively big turbos (two GT28RS) at high boost (wastegate opens at 23 PSI) on the poor quality 91 octane fuel we get in CA.

With 5w20, I'm at 60 PSI cold startup, 15 PSI warm idle, and it goes up roughly 10 PSI per 1000 RPM. That's pretty much the gold standard for oil pressure (some will argue 10 PSI is better at idle, but I'm ok with 15 PSI). Going from a Mocal air/oil cooler to a Laminova liquid/oil cooler didn't change the pressure appreciably, though max operating temperature dropped a bit and became more consistant.

The wife's BMW, on the other hand, chews through 10w60 like nobody's business. I've added 3 quarts in just 8000 miles, and there are plenty of people who average even worse.

 

[ohsigmachi]

Compromise has been mentioned before and unfortunately its a "truthitude" when it comes to the "best oil" choice. The operating environment and intended use of the vehicle (track car, street strip, autocrosser) will also dictate certain needs for the oil choice. I've always been of the opinion that trying to find the "magic-bullet-one-size-fits-all" oil is an exercise in futility, and also an attempt to be cheap and skimp on oil cost or lazy trying to change the oil less... Here's how I would break it down for a hi-po F/I Duratec engine

**Dedicated track/autocrosser: Valvoline VR1 straight 40 or 50 weight changed after every event
**Winter Daily driving: Castrol 0w30 (aka "German Castrol" its tough as nails and nearly a 40 weight)
**Summer Street/Strip: Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 or Redline 10w40

If you a drive a DD to an auto cross or track event then an oil change should be part of your track prep. Buy your self an oil evacuator and put your Daily oil into a dedicated clean container then use a dedicated race oil for your event, drain and dispose of the track oil and return your daily oil to the engine. I'm sure some will say that this process will introduce contaminants into the oil, a good oil filter will remove nearly all of that .

 

[SoopaCooga]

If you a drive a DD to an auto cross or track event then an oil change should be part of your track prep. Buy your self an oil evacuator and put your Daily oil into a dedicated clean container then use a dedicated race oil for your event, drain and dispose of the track oil and return your daily oil to the engine. I'm sure some will say that this process will introduce contaminants into the oil, a good oil filter will remove nearly all of that .

That sounds ideal, so long as the DD oil can be replaced with minimal contamination.

 

[SoopaCooga]

By the way, I've read that several CEG'ers keep an extra quart in the tank. According to Rich Diegle, technical editor at ALLDATA, "An extra quart of oil should never be considered as additional lubrication protection for the engine." He describes why below:

If the oil level falls between the upper and lower [fill marks], do not add more oil. Adding an extra quart could cause over-filling and may result in aeration (foaming) causing eventual damage to vital bearing surfaces and moving parts inside. Over-filling will require some oil to be drained until the indicator shows the level between the upper and lower holes of the blade. An extra quart of oil should never be considered as additional lubrication protection for the engine.

The rest of the quote can be found in this article in Engine Builder Magazine:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Art..._oil_in_ford_lincoln_and_mercury_engines.aspx

 

[ohsigmachi]

By the way, I've read that several CEG'ers keep an extra quart in the tank. According to Rich Diegle, technical editor at ALLDATA, "An extra quart of oil should never be considered as additional lubrication protection for the engine." He describes why below:



The rest of the quote can be found in this article in Engine Builder Magazine:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Art..._oil_in_ford_lincoln_and_mercury_engines.aspx

I think that is a very generalized statement and in no way reflects the truth of the Duratec engine. Contour and Noble owners who really push their engines with very high RPMs and high G-load cornering would be well advised to put an extra quart in the motor. Zetec owners can also get away with nearly a quart over full due to the exceptionally well engineered windage tray and oil pick-up of the Zetec motor. I'm pretty sure the nearly 10 plus years of contour/cougar/and Noble owners adding an extra qt of oil to their motors without seeing the signs of aeration in the oil confirm my own theory. Also, over on one of the Noble forums there is a very good thread about bottom end oil starvation in the Duratec and some possible solutions for it.

 

[SoopaCooga]

I haven't heard of any problems either, although, I doubt most owners would know what to look for prior to catastrophic failure. That is why I found it noteworthy that an ASE technician specifically stated that owners of 2002+ Ford/Lincoln/Mercury cars should avoid adding extra oil. Then again, this guy might not have rebuilt too many Duratec V6. It is interesting to read about the issues the Noble owners are facing; although, I haven't found many of them to be shared with this community. For example, the biggest complaint seems to concern the location of the intercooler.

 

[gotapex]

Oil temperature is probably the biggest complaint on the Noble, especially with the track junkies.