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fuel pressure, lean, and rich at the same time

turbo_fox

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
939
Location
wales ma
We had a dyno day yesterday with a bunch of NECEG people. Alot of the cars were very similar mods, ported 3L, etc. All the untuned 3L's put down in the area of mid to high 180 whp, and all had air/fuel ratios in the mid to high 12's. My car went on the dyno towards the end, and had the lowest HP. My highest pull was 179 whp and 163 torque. The interesting part was my air/fuel ratio was dangerously lean, high 13's and into the mid 14's!

Here is where it gets screwey. I have been trying to diagnose a P0172 code for a couple weeks now (bank 1 too RICH). I data-logged the long term fuel trims on both banks pulling upwards of 20% fuel out to try and correct itself.

After the dyno pulls, I pulled the car into the shop and messed around with it. I took a measurement of fuel pressure from the shrader valve, and it was 80 psi at idle! when i revved the engine, it would drop.

My question is this, what could make the car run lean, think it is running rich, and give it crazy high fuel pressure. The first place I plan on looking is at the pressure regulator.

This may be a tuning question here, but if the fuel pressure on low throttle conditions was crazy high, but at full throttle it was dropping, would that explain it? would the computer see too much fuel most of the time, try to lean it out, then on full throttle conditions it is now too rich? My fuel mileage is also low, like 22mpg.
 
well if there is to much fuel at idle its going to try to pull fuel. this is going to effect everything. so yes it would become lean up top.


this is what is currently happening with my car. there is to much fuel somewhere and the pcm will pull fuel all over and make the top end lean.

since you are not tuned I am not sure what would cause that to happen in this case.
 
Are you free of vaccum leaks? I noticed your idle wasnt too stable. That will cause a lean condition and more fuel to be dumped in, maybe dumping too much fuel causing the fuel trims to pull that 20% :shrug: Just a thought
 
Are you free of vaccum leaks? I noticed your idle wasnt too stable. That will cause a lean condition and more fuel to be dumped in, maybe dumping too much fuel causing the fuel trims to pull that 20% :shrug: Just a thought

I was thinking it could be a vacuum leak, but was thrown off by the 80 psi fuel pressure at idle.

I am going swap the regulator since it is easy enough and test the pressure again.
 
new CEL this morning, P0153. arghh


[FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif]P0153[/FONT][FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif]Upstream Heated Oxygen Sensor circuit Slow Response - Bank No. 2. [/FONT]

might be time for a new sensor, how many miles on it?
 
[FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif]P0153[/FONT][FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif]Upstream Heated Oxygen Sensor circuit Slow Response - Bank No. 2. [/FONT]

might be time for a new sensor, how many miles on it?

Bank 2 sensor I am not sure. I didn't replace it since i owned the car (96K on it when i got it, 101 on it now). I just replaced bank 1 so i guess changing bank 2 is a good place to start.
 
Bank 2 sensor I am not sure. I didn't replace it since i owned the car (96K on it when i got it, 101 on it now). I just replaced bank 1 so i guess changing bank 2 is a good place to start.


can't hurt anyway. I ended up using two new O2 sensors when i got confused and thought one was dead. the second one was ok but showed a slightly weaker signal then the new one so I replaced it anyway.
 
how about this. on the stock manifolds the upstream O2 sensor can monitor all three cylinders, in the headers of course it can't. maybe try putting the upstream O2 sensors in the down stream location so it can read the hole bank and then data log it to compare what the band a/f is. or if you havea wideband O2 sensor do the same on each bank and see where it is overall.
 
Brian, that isnt a bad idea, i will try that if changing the regulator doesnt work


How about this other bizarre thing that happened yesterday, the CEL shut off, but the 2 codes are still there. The bulb still works, because KOEF the light is on, but when you start the car it shuts off.
 
Brian, that isnt a bad idea, i will try that if changing the regulator doesnt work


How about this other bizarre thing that happened yesterday, the CEL shut off, but the 2 codes are still there. The bulb still works, because KOEF the light is on, but when you start the car it shuts off.


well if something was corrected then the light would tune off. I don't know why they would go back to pending codes ....
 
well if something was corrected then the light would tune off. I don't know why they would go back to pending codes ....

they arent pending, they are still there as active codes. I plug my xcal in, it says 2 DTC's found, but the light is out. Being as this is an E0, i think i need to take a close look at my wiring harnesses.
 
well, I guess this is a difficult problem with the lack of responses. The update is I changed the fuel pressure regulator. I don't have access to the fuel pressure tester, but data-logging on my way to work this morning showed the Long term fuel trims still pulling 20+% fuel, so it seems like it will be throwing the code again soon.

I guess that leaves the return line being blocked. I will be trying to get a fuel pressure tester to confirm this.
 
well, brian, since this is a conversation between you and i, I figured i would update you. I checked the fuel pressure, it is still 80 psi at idle. time to check the return line.
 
did the fuel pressure change if you removed the vacuum line from the regulator?

nope. it is constant 80. it drops if I rev the engine. this seems to indicate that the 80 psi is max the pump can deliver, and reving uses up some in the line. all things point to return line kink/clog
 
well that would seem to make sense. so its getting way more fuel then it needs at idle so its trying to lean itself out. so by the time you get to wot it is way lean because its adjusted the fuel out to make the idle leaner.

hope you find something with the line ... I have tomorrow off so if you want any help with anything I can stop by.
 
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