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A Setback in 3.0 Land

M

mosh

CEG'er
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
136
Location
Camas, WA
So I'm driving home on the freeway, going about 70 in 5th gear when the motor stumbles and clearly wants to die. I pull over to the emergency lane and it dies and will not start...no clanking, ticking or mechanical sounds accompanied the problem. I end up getting a AAA tow home.

I fuss with it a couple of nights after work and get nowhere...everything checks out perfect from fuel pressure, to spark to Crank sensor, etc...I check cranking vacuum..NONE. I check compression...rear bank 180...front bank NONE. I think: "Oh, I must have washed out the cylinder walls with all that cranking". Added oil to cylinders, check compression..NONE. Pull UIM...look in LIM....yukky loose carbon flakes?! Pull valve cover....Exhaust valves look to be in a somewhat down positions and rockers are laying around on their sides. Intake side looks good from up top.

Best guess is my exhaust cam timing got retarded a bunch very quickly. The only thing I can think of is that the chain jumped a few teeth.....what's weird though is that the front sprocket marks are the same number of links apart (11) as they should be, everything else is wrong.

Here's a pic of the backside of the cam sprockets at the pulley indicated TDC:

DSCN2554.jpg

Any epiphanies? Anyone?

It was not this way 2500 miles before when I assembled it. It's been an absolute dream until that moment.

I do know I'm removing the timing system and checking and that at least one head is coming off, what I don't know is WHY???

Of course I've put myself at risk by installing an SVT Cam on a Taurus head, but it turns well and the entire timing set is brand new and seems tight...

I'll keep you posted as I discover what's up
 
I reused my SVT cams and sprockets. I reused the cam caps from the 3.0L. I reused the lifter and rocker from the 3.0L. Chains, guides, tensioner, etc are new.
 
chains guides and tensioner are new but are they new 2.5 or new 3.0L Also please tell me that you used the 2.5L crank timing gear since you used svt cams. if not id be willing to bet that is your problem. my car went down for that reason on the guy b4 me and toasted his motor because he used all 2.5 components up top but had the 3.0 gear on the crank. that being said is why i just went back with a straight 3l in the car now lol.
 
Timing chains don't really just jump. I can only think of a couple of root causes:

1) Loss of tension: Little or no oil pressure to tensioner. However, the tensioner has an integrated ratchet mechanism to maintain some tension at startup.

2) Excess friction in valvetrain creating high camdrive load: stuck valve, bad cam/cam bore clearance, spring somehow going into solid lock or jammed by foreign material.
 
icysvt said:
chains guides and tensioner are new but are they new 2.5 or new 3.0L Also please tell me that you used the 2.5L crank timing gear since you used svt cams. if not id be willing to bet that is your problem. my car went down for that reason on the guy b4 me and toasted his motor because he used all 2.5 components up top but had the 3.0 gear on the crank. that being said is why i just went back with a straight 3l in the car now lol.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would be possible to use the 3L sprocket with the SVT cams. It would be obvious that it's the incorrect gear as the chain pitch is much different between the SVT and the 3L. As far as the pulse wheel you can use the 3L wheel as long as you rotate it to the 2.5L position.
 
Blackcoog said:
I don't think it would be possible to use the 3L sprocket with the SVT cams. It would be obvious that it's the incorrect gear as the chain pitch is much different between the SVT and the 3L. As far as the pulse wheel you can use the 3L wheel as long as you rotate it to the 2.5L position.
Click to expand...
let me ask you this then. is the crank timing gear for the 2.5 a one piece or a two piece?
 
the 2.5L crank sprocket that im using is a one piece. i just took apart an se/svt motor that had a 2 piece crank sprocket so id like to know also. just a few days ago i timed a new motor with a one piece sprocket, rotated it like 20 times and no binding so i thought i was fine. put everything back together, and before i put it in the car i want to know if i have to pull it apart again to fix it because i had my 2.5 and 3L parts in one box so i dont know if it is correct. now that i think about it i forgot to mark the chains so im not sure even if i have 2.5 chains or not. im screwed arent i?????are there any part numbers to check myself over labeled on the parts????
 
i did a little research.....

procyon stated this:

"See my post in this thread for how to correctly align the pulsewheel.

Dan's right. Don't even bother looking at the marks on the rear of the camshafts. Use the little notches on the front. That is what the use at the Ford plant.

Other notes. Their is no front or rear to the crank sprocket. They have played around over the years with 2 separate sprockets vs. 1 dual chain sprocket. It's not a 2.5L or 3.0L thing. I'll let you figure out which one is cheaper and which one is easier to assemble"

mine sit fine in the chain no slack or height differences. if what he said is true i should be able to take a 2 piece and a one piece side by side and see if there is a difference. thickness wise and height wise.

sorry icy but i dont think that is what caused you old motor to go bad. i think miss matched cam caps did that one in from the pictures you posted a long time ago.
im 90 percent sure my single piece is the same dimensions as my 2 piece.

also i dont think thin chains will fit one 99 svt cams i think thin will fit on only thin gears and thick will fit on both but you can physically see a difference.
 
Can it be saved?

Can it be saved?

Finally got back into this after a week off and found the immediate and ultimate cause of the failure. The rear set of teeth on the crank sprocket were warn flat, it looks like I had cam bind that was just too much for the timing components and the weekest part broke...what's amazing is that my intake valves weren't bent.

So here's what I've got:
On the front head, the cam journal carrier closest to the water pump was wiped out on both the intake and exhaust, more so the intake cam, with shredded melted metal.
The cams themselves in these 2 spots have noticable scoring.
Lot's of metal has drifted around the engine, with the oil pan loaded with metal dust.
I looked at 2 rod bearings and journals and there is lots of minor pitting in the bearings, but the journals look OK with mostly just the linear grooves from the bearing apparent.

Questions:
Can the head and or cam be salvaged?
Must the crank be removed and repolished?
 
Damn dude. I can't answer your questions, but I hope you get it fixed. :support:
 
the answer... yes it can be salvaged... how much you willing too spend is the question. honestly id say it is time for a new 3L. 98contoursvt is selling a set of svt cams if you need them. they are in good shape.
 
I've got my eye on a 3L with COP (like what year is that 2005+?) that someone put into a 2000 Taurus and then wrecked, should be able to get it for under $400.

My old motor will be out on Sunday.

I clearly need a lesson on checking cam clearances if I am to use SVT cams in a 3.0.....don't want to do that again!
 
My 2005 taurus 3L was COP and I still have those parts for cheap also. If you want the engine wire harness and the COP units so you can fab up a wire harness, check the classifieds and shoot me a PM - I can mail them out ASAP. Gotta keep the '95 alive!
 
I can't know for sure, but I probably either swapped two caps as these 2 that went bad are unmarked, hence two bad spots, or reversed them. Another possibility is that the cam and head combination was a poor fit in general.

In retrospect I failed to do what I see now as a crucial step: Install the cams WITHOUT the rockers and check for rotation and rubbing issues. I went straight to assembly, and the first rotations I did were with chains installed. The general resistance to rotation (which is high) would have masked a specific issue like this unless it was a really tight bind.

Remember, I got almost 2500 miles out of it before it crapped and it ran well right up to the moment of failure. Man will I be paranoid for a while with the next one.

On another subject....anyone think I should just go hybrid? Maybe Aussie would sell me my heads back?
 
Yah, i guess it could be the caps, but i don't see how there would be fitment issues with he svt cams, they are the same size as the 3L cams except for the actual lobes themselves
 
If you are worried about runablility issues, then why even mess with changing the cams and heads? Seems like most "hybrids" or SVT cammed 3L heads are leaving here just as fast as they are built. Leave the 3L as complete as possible, less to screw up IMO. :shrug:
 
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