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got pics of correct/incorrect pulse wheel

You make it sound like the Contour is a Ferrari, Contour wasn't designed to be a sports car the last time I checked... :rolleyes:

There is not need to twist what people say and exagerate them. I said sporty car not sports car.

The discussion here isn't the intake manifolds either its the HEAD PORT DESIGN!!! And there are a number of different metal UIM's available for the 3L if it makes you happier...

The head port design is dependent on the Valves and the intake manifold. There for the port is only there to transition from the intake manifold to the valves. There is no magic, just try and keep the flow going. The 3L manifolds are mostly Oval runners. This makes them hard to hone or modify.

Thanks but I am aware of intake resonance and its effects but if you actually understood this then you would also understand that the intake manifold designed for the 2.5 will be different than the one designed for the 3.0...

THE PURPOSE OF A DUAL RUNNER INTAKE WITH IMRC IS TO BOOST LOW RPM TORQ THATS IT THATS ALL THERE IS NO OTHER REASON!!!!!!!!

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Usually when people talk about intake resonance they are talking about sound. Here is a page that talks about Resonate Ram Tuning: http://www.mne.psu.edu/me415/fall05/SAE/intake.html
 
There is not need to twist what people say and exagerate them. I said sporty car not sports car.

The head port design is dependent on the Valves and the intake manifold. There for the port is only there to transition from the intake manifold to the valves. There is no magic, just try and keep the flow going. The 3L manifolds are mostly Oval runners. This makes them hard to hone or modify.

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Usually when people talk about intake resonance they are talking about sound. Here is a page that talks about Resonate Ram Tuning: http://www.mne.psu.edu/me415/fall05/SAE/intake.html

I didn't know a Contour classified as a Sporty car...

We are not discussing intake manifolds here...And not all oval port manifolds are plastic... We are not talking about modifying intake manifolds either, we are talking about the head ports which people are modifying...

You need to go back read a little bit more and get your terminology correct...
 
The IMRC will work no one said it wouldn't but is it really needed? What is the purpose of the IMRC and dual runner intakes??????
So you figure with an oval port converted to split port there is a potentially better mixing? How do you figure its not worse? Have you gone through the countless hours of the testing the factory does?
Your entire idea of how the oval port converted to split port is all fine and dandy but you are really forgetting the lack of separation between the air with different velocity and the enormous port size which just kills the velocity...

I do really think its easier to fabricate a fuel line than to come up with an entirely new head port design don't you think?

What is the big deal about EGR except emissions care to enlighten me? EGR is an emissions control device nothing else, if your so worried about emissions why not keep the precat's too?

1. Yeah I say potentially because I don't know for sure. I can tell by the driveability that it is NOT worse than stock. Qualitative assessment, driveability equal to or better than stock. You on the other hand cannot prove that it is NOT Better now can you?

2. I am not forgeting the lack of separation as the air exits the primary valve.
YOU are forgetting that the primary runner is what causes the air to increase it's velocity, not the number of valves. YOU are forgetting that like a train, once that air is moving it has Momentum. It doesn't just suddently lose that momentum because it opens into the wider "pre-chamber" where two valves are instead of right into the cylinder. There is no instantaneous reduction in speed and that means it will take a while for the air to slow down. It will probably still push most of the air through the valve port that is right in front of the air stream coming out of the primary runner.
Therefore the air still has enough momentum to enter the cylinders at a greater speed than if it were traveling through a much bigger ovalport the whole way. Is it better than a full split port all the way down to the cylinder itself? Probably not but the more evenly distributed fuel carried through both valves probably makes up for it IMO. (for another through provoking example: think quasi-dual exhaust versus a single exhaust of the same diameter; the quasi-dual restriction is determined by the single pipe portion not the dual portion)

3. 'easier to fabricate a fuel line....' Not really, at least not for someone like me. I'm not creating a new design I'm adapting two designs. That was relatively easy. Same as adapting two fuel rail designs together. The time involve differs, not the difficulty. In that case you would have to evaluate all the remaining time to hack anything else up and fit it as part of the final assessment to complete the job.
In my case everything that can be operational should be operational was my goal.
It doesn't mean that your method is wrong. If your goals differ from mine then we cannot compare easily.

EGR operational. In the tuning code there are sections that have a timing multiplier based upon EGR flow rate. It is there because the engine can tolerate more timing under those condtions....or so the descriptions say. That seems to me that it could possibly be usefull in other ways too.

Emissions are important to me and they should be to you too. You ask why not keep precats then? Well you've heard of planning and prioritization right? I prioritize making more power as my #1 goal, my #2 goal is driveability, my next goal might be reliability, or emissions operation depending on my state, my #4 might be fuel economy, my #5 might be maintenance costs....you get the idea.

These values are like slider bars, you can't increase one without decreases somewhere else. I would not increase power so much that I couldn't live with the driveability so I set mygoals a bit lower. I also want it to be somewhat reliable though not as reliable as stock may be acceptable.
Pre-Cats are most usefull on cold startup and not necessary beyond that but nice. The car still meets emissions requirements without them so that makes it an easier choice to get rid of them. I kept the main cat because it wasn't that much of a drain on power versus the majority of the emissions work it does.
etc.
So unlike some, I approach this thing logically, with goals and plans and such. Consequently I have had a lot of successes in all the areas I've chosen to stick my fingers into.
 
1. Yeah I say potentially because I don't know for sure. I can tell by the driveability that it is NOT worse than stock. Qualitative assessment, driveability equal to or better than stock. You on the other hand cannot prove that it is NOT Better now can you?

2. I am not forgeting the lack of separation as the air exits the primary valve.
YOU are forgetting that the primary runner is what causes the air to increase it's velocity, not the number of valves. YOU are forgetting that like a train, once that air is moving it has Momentum. It doesn't just suddently lose that momentum because it opens into the wider "pre-chamber" where two valves are instead of right into the cylinder. There is no instantaneous reduction in speed and that means it will take a while for the air to slow down. It will probably still push most of the air through the valve port that is right in front of the air stream coming out of the primary runner.
Therefore the air still has enough momentum to enter the cylinders at a greater speed than if it were traveling through a much bigger ovalport the whole way. Is it better than a full split port all the way down to the cylinder itself? Probably not but the more evenly distributed fuel carried through both valves probably makes up for it IMO. (for another through provoking example: think quasi-dual exhaust versus a single exhaust of the same diameter; the quasi-dual restriction is determined by the single pipe portion not the dual portion)

3. 'easier to fabricate a fuel line....' Not really, at least not for someone like me. I'm not creating a new design I'm adapting two designs. That was relatively easy. Same as adapting two fuel rail designs together. The time involve differs, not the difficulty. In that case you would have to evaluate all the remaining time to hack anything else up and fit it as part of the final assessment to complete the job.
In my case everything that can be operational should be operational was my goal.
It doesn't mean that your method is wrong. If your goals differ from mine then we cannot compare easily.

EGR operational. In the tuning code there are sections that have a timing multiplier based upon EGR flow rate. It is there because the engine can tolerate more timing under those condtions....or so the descriptions say. That seems to me that it could possibly be usefull in other ways too.

Emissions are important to me and they should be to you too. You ask why not keep precats then? Well you've heard of planning and prioritization right? I prioritize making more power as my #1 goal, my #2 goal is driveability, my next goal might be reliability, or emissions operation depending on my state, my #4 might be fuel economy, my #5 might be maintenance costs....you get the idea.

These values are like slider bars, you can't increase one without decreases somewhere else. I would not increase power so much that I couldn't live with the driveability so I set mygoals a bit lower. I also want it to be somewhat reliable though not as reliable as stock may be acceptable.
Pre-Cats are most usefull on cold startup and not necessary beyond that but nice. The car still meets emissions requirements without them so that makes it an easier choice to get rid of them. I kept the main cat because it wasn't that much of a drain on power versus the majority of the emissions work it does.
etc.
So unlike some, I approach this thing logically, with goals and plans and such. Consequently I have had a lot of successes in all the areas I've chosen to stick my fingers into.

Its hard keeping up with the 2 threads on NECO and here...
I'll just post up whatever I posted for reply over here too...
96blackse said:
Tom, I am understanding what your saying and agree that there will be laminar air flow when the secondary is closed until the air enters the modified oval port...
So we agree that the velocity has been reduced as the air enters the modified oval port and we agree that there would be increased turbulence , am I correct upto here?
Now you are saying its good to have turbulence and I agree that its good to have turbulence but not in the head port (but rather in the combustion chamber)... There are lot more factors thats correct but I would say velocity is the key...
Also you are not considering the restriction and inefficiency caused by turbulence when you are giving the example for the river ;)
Hence, we would not be getting the same amount of air into the combustion chamber due to the decrease in velocity and increase in turbulence due to the shape of the head port...
So what we end up with is that if the injector is placed correctly in a better location that there is no need for the oversized port which is going to reduce the velocity and increase turbulence it would be better since we would end up with more air into the cylinders...

Its like drinking juice from a cup using a straw, the straw has got to be the right size for us and then we gotta suck as much as we can...
Imagine at some point in the straw there is turbulent flow (due to i don't know what, i can't make up anything right now) the turbulence will use up some energy causing an inefficiency which in the end will make us drink less in the same amount of time...

Hopefully whatever I wrote makes some sense and we can agree on the topic :)
 
I don't have a problem with it except that I KNOW for a FACT that turbulent flow is actually designed into intake ports on port fuel injected vehicles in order to help vaporize the fuel better. I've seen this on more than one manufacturers engine too. Roughness in that area of the intake port due to casting can actually help, but only below the injector where the atomized fuel is hitting the air.
I've seen some cylinder heads with small vanes cast into the intake port just for this reason, to create turbulence right there before it enters the head.

So even if the "average" mass flow isn't optimal, like you seem to be indicating, the improvements in fuel mixing should be a benefit.

I also don't believe there is significant energy lost in creating turbulence to be worth the concern especially when the manufacturer finds it more beneficial. I can't prove that the split/oval hybrid actually preserves the air velocity but I suspect that it doesn't differ much from the stock split port IMO. If you think it is degraded by comparison, then you are making the right choice based on that logic. So no I don't have a problem with what you are saying, I just don't agree with the conclusions you drew.
 
I don't have a problem with it except that I KNOW for a FACT that turbulent flow is actually designed into intake ports on port fuel injected vehicles in order to help vaporize the fuel better. I've seen this on more than one manufacturers engine too. Roughness in that area of the intake port due to casting can actually help, but only below the injector where the atomized fuel is hitting the air.
I've seen some cylinder heads with small vanes cast into the intake port just for this reason, to create turbulence right there before it enters the head.

So even if the "average" mass flow isn't optimal, like you seem to be indicating, the improvements in fuel mixing should be a benefit.

I also don't believe there is significant energy lost in creating turbulence to be worth the concern especially when the manufacturer finds it more beneficial. I can't prove that the split/oval hybrid actually preserves the air velocity but I suspect that it doesn't differ much from the stock split port IMO. If you think it is degraded by comparison, then you are making the right choice based on that logic. So no I don't have a problem with what you are saying, I just don't agree with the conclusions you drew.

I believe the small vanes and the roughness on the head ports at certain locations are not to create turbulence in the entire port but rather to just energize the boundary layer...
The manufacturers use the turbulent flow only at the boundary layer for the vaporization of fuel as you stated...

Also in the case of the modified oval port, when the secondary runners open up there will be even more turbulent flow since the velocity of air coming out of each runner will be different (due to runner size and length)

In conclusion what I am trying to say is... If the primary and secondary runners were divided like stock, the velocity would be there but still its sort of inefficient because its not the greatest scenarios for fuel atomization since the secondary just feeds air to the combustion chamber...
And if one wanted to use the split port intakes in a better way then they should look into reducing the size of the port to the same flow area as primary+secondary runners and actually moving the injector to a more central location similar to the stock oval ports but then you still end up with different velocity of each runner still causing turbulence..

But then why wouldn't one just use the stock oval ports since the factory has done their testing on port design with much more complicated computer aided software and is definitely better than the stock split ports?
 
Gosh I would just let this die but the way you worded that stuff about the boundary layer is misleading.

There is ALWAYS a boundary layer. Layer thickness depends on surface roughness and other factors. The boundary layer isn't the biggest issue with fuel vaporization. It is the laminar flow that is the problem! Laminar flow will take the fuel with it in little streams and not let it mix or disperse well. The injector sprays it wide to distribute the molecules better but a little turbulence mixes it MUCH better. It is generally accepted that the shape of the combustion chamber creates the swirl and turbulence to finish mixing the fuel but it is a hell of a lot better to have it mixed earlier on in order to have as much fuel vaporized before it hits the chamber as possible so that fuel doesn't build up on the intake valves and walls.

The cast in vanes I was discussing create swirl and turbulence. Disturbing the boundary layer will occur anyway and that leads to turbulence.

So I stand by what I said that the ovalport seems likely to promote better mixing. The airflow going by from one primary runner into two streams with low restriction and changes of direction is probably a benefit to mixing.

When the secondary opens it will be even better because the two streams will create all kinds of swirls and eddies. I think it is a win-win situation with the only possible drawback being perhaps a bit of a reduction in the Average velocity of the air at certain speeds when the secondary is closed; though operation of the IMRC does still retain increases in cylinder filling even with the hybrid over what a straigh ovalport would do.

Whatever. I'm done with this topic as no matter how you try to make it sound this is pure speculation anyway. The words probably and suppose, and the like are more suited for this discussion and you should be uysing them too because none of us are automotive engineers who specialize in combustion. I As I indicated before, I think there is some validity to what you say but I believe you are making more of an issue about than it warrants.
It will only take some genius who studies this stuff to come and prove us both wrong on some point or other anyway.

Because of this last fact, I can only stand on the tested results which seem to me to prove the original statements:
The oval/split port conversion is at least as good or better than the full ovalport or split port hybrid.

You forget, I did the split port 3L hybrid back in the day, full port and polish, 3L valves and everything. I was only the second one to put in 3L valves and I was the one who sat down and documented all the unanswered questions about valve spacing, what seats needed replacing, or just recut, how to modify the combustion chamber, etc. Built, documented, and dyno'd.
With all my experience and money spent, I find that the split port 3L hybrid performed about the same as the oval/split hybrids we are doing today. PERFORMED THE SAME! Without the required $400 worth of headwork to fit the valves, seats, etc. Without 10-15 hours of head porting required just to make it flow like a 3L head. All that versus about 4 hours and maybe $10 to just convert a basic oval/split. I like quality work, but I'm not stupid about it either since it is results I am after, balanced with costs/time involved.

So no one is going to be able to come in and tell me this way is inferior when I did both types and viewed many dynos of both.

Now granted, you can race-port a split port head with 3L valves with another 10 hours of work on top of that and I think make more power than a minimum oval/split conversion. But you can also put that 10-15 hours into an oval head and probably do as well with about the same total work. When you get to that level of work and detail, both ways just suck up a bunch of time and money and it only makes sense to do it if you've got lots of money, or lots of time and personal pride.
 
Because of this last fact, I can only stand on the tested results which seem to me to prove the original statements:
The oval/split port conversion is at least as good or better than the full ovalport or split port hybrid.

That's a good claim, warmonger. Maybe someone will try to prove you wrong with dyno slips.
 
Not at all. That's the funny thing. This whole discussion hasn't been about performance. It's been about theories on airflow and your way is stoopid because mine's better. If it had been about performance, the discussion never would have taken place(on two different sites, thank you NECO).

The fact of the matter is, there are many roads that lead to horsepower. Whether you take a path different than others doesn't make your path superior. Especially if they make as much, or more, horsepower than you.

I can't wait for the "your supercharger system sucks compared to my turbocharger system because of parasitic loss, even though you make more horsepower than I do" thread.
 
I read on DemonSVT's website that you need to keep the IMRC installed so that the computer does not go into limp home mode. I guess he did a lot of programming and testing to make his car work well with out it.

This seems to be incorrect. The IMRC was not installed on my 3L build and have never thrown a check engine light as a result of it. No additional programming, etc.
 
Look at your power output though. Ever done any datalogging of your timing? Even ADC couldn't figure out how to remove this programming. I have datalogs of people with ADC chips, with "NO IMRC & NO CEL", that have basically baseline timing. ADC didn't datalog either. What a shocker...

If you unplug the IMRC you will never get the 10-11 degrees of IMRC timing adder. This is not a guess but a simple fact of the programming. Period.

If you want I can "repost yet again" the graphs of the timing loss.
 
Not at all. That's the funny thing. This whole discussion hasn't been about performance. It's been about theories on airflow and your way is stoopid because mine's better. If it had been about performance, the discussion never would have taken place(on two different sites, thank you NECO).

The fact of the matter is, there are many roads that lead to horsepower. Whether you take a path different than others doesn't make your path superior. Especially if they make as much, or more, horsepower than you.

I can't wait for the "your supercharger system sucks compared to my turbocharger system because of parasitic loss, even though you make more horsepower than I do" thread.

If you don't like it don't read it and better yet don't reply to it!!!... I am not sure if you understand but it is totally a discussion about performance, head theory, volumetric efficiency, which in turn (let me think) turns into performance!!!!!!!...
This is called having an opinion and applying knowledge that is known from science to a particular scenario, and I am not sure why your not able to handle it...

There are not many roads that lead to horsepower :rolleyes: Since when???? There are not different physics for different people there is only one the last time I checked...
 
Look at your power output though. Ever done any datalogging of your timing? Even ADC couldn't figure out how to remove this programming. I have datalogs of people with ADC chips, with "NO IMRC & NO CEL", that have basically baseline timing. ADC didn't datalog either. What a shocker...

If you unplug the IMRC you will never get the 10-11 degrees of IMRC timing adder. This is not a guess but a simple fact of the programming. Period.

If you want I can "repost yet again" the graphs of the timing loss.

My only point in making that post was that the IMRC is not needed to keep the car from throwing a CEL and subsequently going in to a limp home mode. The car drives fine without it.
 
I don't disagree with that. Actually, I have a "custom" tune (if you want to call it that) but I believe it is way too conservative considering. I'll get back on the dyno one day.
 
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