BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
sounds like a few mods to get that much hp from a straight swap. New motor effect maybe?
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New 3L option. No grinding or welding
- Thread starter todras
- Start date
sounds like a few mods to get that much hp from a straight swap. New motor effect maybe?
Redlineracer12
Addicted CEG'er
That 228 wasn't the straight swap. It was the Hybrid. I don't like to compare different dyno numbers anyhow. They vary so much from one to the next that who really knows unless you are all using the same dyno the same day.
STD smoothing.... A stock 2.5 could put down those numbers under the right conditions with that kind of smoothing.
Im still not entirely convinced that COP is worth the effort. Its noted on FCO that it improves throttle response and tq due to the decrease in latency, I think you'd be hard pressed to actually feel this in everyday driving situations. The other contention was that it takes away any issues with stumbling or hesitation due to bad wires or coil, which is easily remedied with a new coil or wires which generally have a decently long life cycle.
Perhaps it will be worth it if someone comes out with a plug and play harness that will make COP viable, but as it sits it involves tearing nearly the whole harness apart (?) from what ive read 'over there' at least....
BAD SVT
Addicted CEG'er
oooh! gatcha.
Trapps
Track Marshal
WTF does this have to do with the discussion? "How many members does your site have?" Look at FCO numbers; of the 43xx, how many are active? Here's a hint, nobody gives a phuk.
Let's stay on topic here; as a moderator, my nose does belong. 3 liters, coils and manifolds, great. Panties in a bunch not so much.
rac74
CEG'er
To those worried about the HP numbers, forget them. Seriously, what matters more, crossing the finish line first, or saying "my car has xxxBHP"?
The full 3L puts down less but transverses the same RPM range in nearly two seconds less time! If you're worried about a 'number', a well developed CAI and headers with a retune on the same full 3L setup should come close to what the hybrid pulled and widen the time gap even further. There are a few 3L engines in the development stages now that will show to make some impressive power.
Throw away the SVT bits, they're old tech., outdated, etc...Enough of this 'easy' route, it's not outrageously difficult. Certainly less work and money than these 'other' swaps.
Again, who cares about numbers except those on the track. The dyno's were done at the same place with nearly the same conditions. It's a credible account. Transient reponse is ALL that matters!
The full 3L puts down less but transverses the same RPM range in nearly two seconds less time! If you're worried about a 'number', a well developed CAI and headers with a retune on the same full 3L setup should come close to what the hybrid pulled and widen the time gap even further. There are a few 3L engines in the development stages now that will show to make some impressive power.
Throw away the SVT bits, they're old tech., outdated, etc...Enough of this 'easy' route, it's not outrageously difficult. Certainly less work and money than these 'other' swaps.
Again, who cares about numbers except those on the track. The dyno's were done at the same place with nearly the same conditions. It's a credible account. Transient reponse is ALL that matters!
The Bickering stops now... If it continues infractions, warnings & banned camp invitations will be issued.
-Mark
-Mark
BuckeyeSVT
CEG'er
Where did I stereotype CEG? I said "people," not "everyone on CEG." You're seriously bringing up active members to total members? The Contour has been dead since 2000, did you expect everyone to have as much enthusiasm about the car, as the people that still own them? I'm one of many people who have sold their Contours(myself, after 7 years of ownership), but stick around. Not everyone does the same. Sticking my nose in something I have no business? It's a public forum, I'll stick my nose in where I see fit. Now, it appears yours has a nice fit in Terry's rectum. Now, for the 37th time, you can leave the site as easy as you came in. Good luck with that whole attitude thing.
Mark
Wow, a wisecracker. Your type ran off both Terry and I... Yes - Your attitude. I was pissed about how "one" person stated that I stole their idea. You added your .02, opened your mouth and inserted your foot. I was responding to a comment on this site, not mine... If you choose to attack me, whatever - Right or wrong it's still no matter. It's not a public forum, you have rules - technically you were flamebaiting. Ridiculing "credited" members of the Contour community is one sure sign of your ignorance. They are no longer here, thanks to your nonsense banter.
I see everyone talk about how the car is out of production and people are dwindling - Gee, I wonder why? With people like Y2K who needs "dedicated individuals"? Just replace them with teenagers who ask the same questions over and over again. Then tell them to shut up and search. Sound familiar?
I would think you would want to concentrate the "talent". I forgot, you recruit the wrong type of "talent" and have no interest in the real point of the site - Contours!. Do you get cookies for zingers here?.... Nevermind the ban warnings - Been there done that. I know where home is, anyone with real questions about Contours knows where to ask.
-D
Redlineracer12
Addicted CEG'er
I'm not so sure I agree with you. You're saying the full 3L swap is going to put down better numbers at the track? Having the power come in quicker is just going to lead towards MORE wheelspin, having the power up top isn't necessarily a bad thing. Furthermore when you're at the track you're not going to take off/shift into gear at 2k RPM like a dyno pull. You're going to wind those suckers out and spend the majority of your time in the upper revs anyhow. Sure dyno numbers aren't everything, but neither are 1/4 mile times in a 4 door sedan :shrug:
I don't think the older style engine swaps are going away anytime soon. The biggest reason they are being done is to save money and gain hp. Both of which can be accomplished by these "other" swaps.
rac74
CEG'er
I'll agree on not racing at 2000RPM but that's where I stop. The 3L cams hone in on a 'fun zone' on the street. That is, power is available no matter where you're at. While being the 'HP king' is fun for some, it's nothing more than bragging rights. The engine has to be wound out to make the power, it's a very narrow powerband, and the fun is short lived unless you're on a long strip or race track. More TQ available to tear away from lights, passing, spurts in 2nd and 3rd gear. There is power everywhere. It's up to the owner but, not everyone lives in the throttle.
If you're worried about wheelspin, get a RWD car. Basic physics.
The hybrid engine is justifiable since it uses all the same top-end components. That is, they're engineered to work together. However, they're out dated and all the money you spent on all these 'hot' parts, you could have a full bolt on straight swap making nearly the same (if not the same or more, we'll know soon) HP with all the extra TQ. Have your cake and eat it too?
The 'mismatched' engines are just that. Combining parts that were never engineered to work together makes not one bit of sense. I speak well informed on my next comments, they're junk! I don't care what anyone says, they are old technology and outdated. There are much better parts available to use. By combining old with new, you upset any and all engineering that went into them. I do not care what anyone says! You cannot deny the physical laws that govern the various components that allow th ICE to work efficiantly. An engine will behave as it's design dictates it should.
I disagree on the old swaps sticking around, except to the close minded. I know of a few 3L engines in the development stages that will open some eyes upon completion.
If you're worried about wheelspin, get a RWD car. Basic physics.
The hybrid engine is justifiable since it uses all the same top-end components. That is, they're engineered to work together. However, they're out dated and all the money you spent on all these 'hot' parts, you could have a full bolt on straight swap making nearly the same (if not the same or more, we'll know soon) HP with all the extra TQ. Have your cake and eat it too?
The 'mismatched' engines are just that. Combining parts that were never engineered to work together makes not one bit of sense. I speak well informed on my next comments, they're junk! I don't care what anyone says, they are old technology and outdated. There are much better parts available to use. By combining old with new, you upset any and all engineering that went into them. I do not care what anyone says! You cannot deny the physical laws that govern the various components that allow th ICE to work efficiantly. An engine will behave as it's design dictates it should.
I disagree on the old swaps sticking around, except to the close minded. I know of a few 3L engines in the development stages that will open some eyes upon completion.
You may not care what anyone thinks, but if thats your attitude than no one cares what you think either. You come here and try to tell us that the SVT cams are outdated (with nothing to back up your claim other than their age... is the SBC outdated yet?), yet they work well in many different swaps! You yourself said its a matter of what the owner likes! I mean you cant honestly think that the way everything is engineered from the factory is the best possible thing, that would be ridiculous.
I personally would hate to have generic 3 liter cams that die out after 6000 RPM. I love hitting redline every time I drive the car! You may be in a sweet spot, but im only a downshift away.
On a side note, ive seen you comparing the hybrid vs full swap graphs and then setting parameters that make the full swap look better. Its a bit silly to cut the SVT cams off before they start to get into THEIR sweet spot. While it may be a nice tool to justify your theories, it may also be misleading to others.... Just tossing that out there.
yamaha racer 686
Hard-core CEG'er
cheap horses is the best horses. i dont care if its complicated. the cheaper i can go and still get ponies i dont care how its done.
rac74
CEG'er
My initial test showed the actual powerband these engines would be effective in using realistic redlines for both. The 3L obviously can't hang in the hybrids range because it is limited up top. I said this in my first post. I don't doubt the hybrid is the quicker engine in this case but, one has to look at the fact the the hybrid is also modified to a greater extent.
Someone can clearly see where the sweet spots are, my initial test illistrated that. They can pick accordingly to what they want. Still, we need a full bolt on straight swap for a more precise comparison.
In the 2000RPM-~6750RPM overlay, the straight swap obviously reaches redline sooner because it has far greater low end and midrange TQ. From this stand point it looks better than the hybrid because it can get moving quicker. In a dynamic situation, one has to look at gear changes with respective RPMS, vehicle speeds, TQ, etc..to gain the true answer to the equation. Rather complex, better to just run them.
This test however shows merit if one knows what to look for (the weak points). Compare this with the respective powerband test and we see if we can increase top end performance somehow, we can spank the hybrid anywhere. There are ways to doing this, even with limited cam timing.
As far as my remarks about old components, I stand by them still. Never said the factory had the best engineered components but with new technology and development, the components are better engineered consequently. Why do you think the SBC has become more efficient?
My primary argument is meshing components not engineered with what they are being used with. My attitude may seem rather poor to some for whatever reason, but there is only way to do something, that's the right way.
Any theories that I may come up with are relevant with data I've collected. I have a lot of it for a particular engine I'm working on. I'll say that none of the old stuff and even little of the new stuff is going on mine. Neither is close to optimal.
Many get upset when I say the ports and valves are too big. Well they are, done the math.
Someone can clearly see where the sweet spots are, my initial test illistrated that. They can pick accordingly to what they want. Still, we need a full bolt on straight swap for a more precise comparison.
In the 2000RPM-~6750RPM overlay, the straight swap obviously reaches redline sooner because it has far greater low end and midrange TQ. From this stand point it looks better than the hybrid because it can get moving quicker. In a dynamic situation, one has to look at gear changes with respective RPMS, vehicle speeds, TQ, etc..to gain the true answer to the equation. Rather complex, better to just run them.
This test however shows merit if one knows what to look for (the weak points). Compare this with the respective powerband test and we see if we can increase top end performance somehow, we can spank the hybrid anywhere. There are ways to doing this, even with limited cam timing.
As far as my remarks about old components, I stand by them still. Never said the factory had the best engineered components but with new technology and development, the components are better engineered consequently. Why do you think the SBC has become more efficient?
My primary argument is meshing components not engineered with what they are being used with. My attitude may seem rather poor to some for whatever reason, but there is only way to do something, that's the right way.
Any theories that I may come up with are relevant with data I've collected. I have a lot of it for a particular engine I'm working on. I'll say that none of the old stuff and even little of the new stuff is going on mine. Neither is close to optimal.
Many get upset when I say the ports and valves are too big. Well they are, done the math.
Redlineracer12
Addicted CEG'er
Now I know you sound familiar, you're on NECO too aren't you?
I've read your arguments before. While agree with a lot of them, I don't agree with the SVT parts being outdated. Maybe I'm just stubborn
rac74
CEG'er
The plenum volume was cut by about half for packaging reasons. Someone had a fabricated variable runner manifold that was a Ford proto. Had much larger plenums. The combined port area of the split ports is HUGE!
As far as cams, that's a bit more complicated. You have to look at the calculated piston demand at various crank degrees. VE plays a big part on what actually reaches the cylinder. This is where port geometry, timing points, curtain area, and the overall time to fill the cylinder comes in. People would be astounded if they knew how much time exists to fill the cylinder.
As far as cams, that's a bit more complicated. You have to look at the calculated piston demand at various crank degrees. VE plays a big part on what actually reaches the cylinder. This is where port geometry, timing points, curtain area, and the overall time to fill the cylinder comes in. People would be astounded if they knew how much time exists to fill the cylinder.
BurritaSVT
Veteran CEG'er
Wow just a half day my internet was down I was missing so much here> darn where do I start here.
first off if I thought of terry any less of a person why would I have offered him a huge discount on our turbo kits and brakes kits. I thought we were on good terms hoping to work together not against each other.
And man how in the world did you take that as a serious comment out of post I even posted a laugh mark(lol) maybe I should had done what the teenagers say J/J or JK whatever it is........
I can care less who came up with idea I was stating that this idea was thought of by Tom and I back in January where we came together with ideas we had before I merge.
I personally think it is better to have more products for all contour guys to pick from I definitly never bashed anyone kits or ideas heck We are even about to contact BlackCoug to buy some SC kits for the ATX guys and we could go right to the drawing board and make our own if we wanted trust me.
There are enough people and customers out there that I don't have to bash anyone. I even was going to send my tranny to Terry to get him to put his magic to it. I also will be putting his tranny upgrades on my site to generate happy customers.
Plus we are using to totally different setups since his return line is not used at all(read here today)
Heck I was going to contact him to give him a buy in the parts if he wanted but now from what I heard from you can I trust that proposition. I hoping you are just a huge fan of him and not him putting you up to it. And if you want to tell him I said this I really apprecaited the great comments he made to us about our kit. I am hoping he was honest and not turning his head and acting the way you are.
So if you don't take my word as a man to man then I rather not talk to you about this anymore I have alot of friends and I can use a enemy if you want one because I found this very offensive move on your part. Why don't you check your data on your site an d see when the last time I looked at your site never so I didn't hear any new idea from him.
what does it seem impossoble to think to smart people can find a simple solution to the fuel rail when it was not hard in the first place. I needed the idea to work for my LIM mod back last year after I spent a whole week back and forth to the welder and back home porting my heads till I was dead tired.
So I wish you luck with your secret mod and I am sure you will do just fine I am not going to lose sleep over a bad interpretation of a joke I thought of it as just my luck when I was able to make the part for real I had some great competition Terry in a good way because I invested in it alot by making 15 sets prepaid to my machinist. I was just hoping i am not sitting with stock for my own sake but heck that is why I am not in the mustang world because ther is alot of competition.
I will have one peice of it with my new billet intake to mate up the m112 to all the 99-04 gt putting down 425whp stock bottom end . The idea was mentioned to me by a good CEG to develop the part since he knew most have attempted and failed to make it due to cost being to high. So guess what we got the kit 75 % done and keeping it affordable under all the kit available and we are still making good profit. Just face it I am guy who get more happines out of making ideas work when most think they are not possible wait till I roll up next SZ2008 I will have a unique car ....
Sorry guys for the long post but I thought some people should know more about me I am not a person to trash anyone period I think I help more people and get more satisifcation out of the happy people. Thanks Joey
first off if I thought of terry any less of a person why would I have offered him a huge discount on our turbo kits and brakes kits. I thought we were on good terms hoping to work together not against each other.
And man how in the world did you take that as a serious comment out of post I even posted a laugh mark(lol) maybe I should had done what the teenagers say J/J or JK whatever it is........
I can care less who came up with idea I was stating that this idea was thought of by Tom and I back in January where we came together with ideas we had before I merge.
I personally think it is better to have more products for all contour guys to pick from I definitly never bashed anyone kits or ideas heck We are even about to contact BlackCoug to buy some SC kits for the ATX guys and we could go right to the drawing board and make our own if we wanted trust me.
There are enough people and customers out there that I don't have to bash anyone. I even was going to send my tranny to Terry to get him to put his magic to it. I also will be putting his tranny upgrades on my site to generate happy customers.
Plus we are using to totally different setups since his return line is not used at all(read here today)
Heck I was going to contact him to give him a buy in the parts if he wanted but now from what I heard from you can I trust that proposition. I hoping you are just a huge fan of him and not him putting you up to it. And if you want to tell him I said this I really apprecaited the great comments he made to us about our kit. I am hoping he was honest and not turning his head and acting the way you are.
So if you don't take my word as a man to man then I rather not talk to you about this anymore I have alot of friends and I can use a enemy if you want one because I found this very offensive move on your part. Why don't you check your data on your site an d see when the last time I looked at your site never so I didn't hear any new idea from him.
what does it seem impossoble to think to smart people can find a simple solution to the fuel rail when it was not hard in the first place. I needed the idea to work for my LIM mod back last year after I spent a whole week back and forth to the welder and back home porting my heads till I was dead tired.
So I wish you luck with your secret mod and I am sure you will do just fine I am not going to lose sleep over a bad interpretation of a joke I thought of it as just my luck when I was able to make the part for real I had some great competition Terry in a good way because I invested in it alot by making 15 sets prepaid to my machinist. I was just hoping i am not sitting with stock for my own sake but heck that is why I am not in the mustang world because ther is alot of competition.
I will have one peice of it with my new billet intake to mate up the m112 to all the 99-04 gt putting down 425whp stock bottom end . The idea was mentioned to me by a good CEG to develop the part since he knew most have attempted and failed to make it due to cost being to high. So guess what we got the kit 75 % done and keeping it affordable under all the kit available and we are still making good profit. Just face it I am guy who get more happines out of making ideas work when most think they are not possible wait till I roll up next SZ2008 I will have a unique car ....
Sorry guys for the long post but I thought some people should know more about me I am not a person to trash anyone period I think I help more people and get more satisifcation out of the happy people. Thanks Joey
BurritaSVT
Veteran CEG'er
Well now that I have time to rad though your post and see that there is one person I see is closed minded in the arguement. I am obviousily not because I am offering the fuel mod for the full 3 liter swap for those who want mid range and down low power designed for the ATX world. Why do you think the SVT cams were built above it SE to make more power to be mated to a MTX to gain the full potential of some great overlapped cams that didn't seem practical to make it on a slush box ATX which robs all the bottom end power and has shorter rev limits so that is why you have the 3 liter cams If you look at Tom's dyno he has shown many times the 3 liter cams made more torque sooner and feel fast at redline less power band than SVT which maintain a flat torque curve across the board while making more pwoer due to the longer rpm pull. So most people here build there 3.0 here for what to have a faster car and you even mentioned that it for racing only since we all know that in a race staying in the gear longer makes for a better race period if you are still make torque to do so.
So if you put your 3.0 in there for casual driving then it just a what you need a midrange motor for everyday driving but there are some people here who like there car to feel fast and when it revs higher and holds power to redline it make a car feel sporty.
They had articles dating back when it was compared to a all the cars in its class which all had more torque to drive guess what car felt faster to them and sporty SVT sure you can't argue that point.
And about you saying mismatching parts sounds like you better start heading to the other car forums telling them to stop doing switching parts since the factory meant it to work with just that engine. You really think the factory is out looking for you to have the best possible setup when the casting era is declining to plastic injection molds lighter,cheaper, imperfections in the cast having to remelt them down so in 2020 all car will made of plastic where they can do better by making it carbon fiber.....oh that is too expensive isn't it?
You want to look at what factory put there real technolgy look at ford GT, Corvette, etc. But it seems people are still putting on better parts for less them the replacement value of the OEM one.
I just don't buy it that factory tunes there engines only to work with that part you better come up with better facts and you can buy the real expensive motors to keep up with technology and we will keep adding boost to our and making our stronger than factory.
Let people do what they want to do if they want to take there duratec out there car to install a sho motor, vetec, or any other motor it there decision rather it better or not, no point in bashing the people who want to be different. Joey
TourDeForce
Hard-core CEG'er
rac74's arguement that the SVT parts are outdated is just plain wrong. The parts were built for a different car & ENGINE. That is why they were designed that way. Sure the 3L & its cams & intake setup has more torque down low, but it was designed to lug around a much heavier car. Run SVT cams in a 500 3L and it'll be a dog around town. In a Contour, they're great fun - especially with a 3L.
Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the oval port design was developled to simplify the intake tract & cut costs - right down to having only two of four bolts holding the throttle body on some of the Taurus engines that came out of the factory. Read on NECO a bit to find that info for yourself.
The 3L & oval port is a great combo for what it is designed to do. There is nothing wrong with modding it to mimmic the 2.5 characteristics - it is, after all basically the same engine with more displacement. There is also nothing wrong with making use of the oval ports & stock 3L cams because they do make the car LOADS of fun to drive on the street.
For the record, my 3L will have the 3L heads & cams. I will lower the redline 500 rpm or so to make best use of the power band of the 3L, and I plan to utilize my 2.5 UIM/LIM setup and port match the head to them. One difference from most 3L conversions - I'll be adding material to turn the oval ports into true split ports. I'm hoping this move will improve low end performance and fuel mileage at cruise. The biggest benefit I hope to see will be ease of tuning to obtain the optimum performance out of the setup.
There are some choices people can make now. Budget 3L, hybrid, full swap and this new approach. Each has its benefits for performance, cost, and ease of implimentation. The more choices the BETTER. People can pick & choose where they want the power & how much money & effort they want to dedicate to getting there.
Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the oval port design was developled to simplify the intake tract & cut costs - right down to having only two of four bolts holding the throttle body on some of the Taurus engines that came out of the factory. Read on NECO a bit to find that info for yourself.
The 3L & oval port is a great combo for what it is designed to do. There is nothing wrong with modding it to mimmic the 2.5 characteristics - it is, after all basically the same engine with more displacement. There is also nothing wrong with making use of the oval ports & stock 3L cams because they do make the car LOADS of fun to drive on the street.
For the record, my 3L will have the 3L heads & cams. I will lower the redline 500 rpm or so to make best use of the power band of the 3L, and I plan to utilize my 2.5 UIM/LIM setup and port match the head to them. One difference from most 3L conversions - I'll be adding material to turn the oval ports into true split ports. I'm hoping this move will improve low end performance and fuel mileage at cruise. The biggest benefit I hope to see will be ease of tuning to obtain the optimum performance out of the setup.
There are some choices people can make now. Budget 3L, hybrid, full swap and this new approach. Each has its benefits for performance, cost, and ease of implimentation. The more choices the BETTER. People can pick & choose where they want the power & how much money & effort they want to dedicate to getting there.
warmonger
Hard-core CEG'er
It also looks like the 05 got up to peak hp quicker. Which would generally be more acceleration. It had more torque then the Hybrid :crazy:
I think most of those differences are just due to Cams. The fact that the dyno sheet is in time vs. rpms bugs me as well.
Edit: And I still don't think it would be as easy as using a Nautilus LIM :shrug:
Doesn't really matter. The IMRC switchover point is obvious and that tells you it is 3800rpm at that point.
On the other hand am I the only one who can see that the Crossover points at 5252RPM for both graphs are offset? :shocked::shocked:
Am I also the only one that can see if you line those two back up then the hybrid horsepower will be almost superimposed right over top of the 05 engine in the low range, the real low end will be higher and so will the topEnd!
Analysis:
Since these are overlayed in terms of time, one has to compare at what time the engine hit a known rpm, 5252 is a good known point on both. It took the hybrid 9.8 seconds or so to hit 5252 rpm and it took the ovalport 3L 8.7 seconds to hit it's 5252 rpm. If you just stop there then you'd think the ovalport was faster to that rpm. However what we don't know is the starting point of each graph. In the graph below we see that the two power curves start at exactly the same time. Well once you shift the graphs over to line up the 5252 rpm point you'll see that the ovalport was started about 1000rpm later in the rpm range, and it added about 1 full second to the time it took to accelerate. So in reality they are not superimposed correctly and the hybrid has been run over a longer rpm range, therefore the time of the dyno run should be longer. The real story is told in terms of area under the torque curve and HP curves. That little torque bump of the escape cams doesn't do much in terms of overal power because of how late it comes on and how fast it drops off. The escape camm'd engine might do better in the low range if it actually had a decent tune but it looks like the spark timing is still designed around the 2.5L split port and NOT a proper tune that maximize the low range of the 3l ovalport.
That hybrid will absolutely DESTORY that O5 ovalport in terms of broad power band and usable power. The torque curve is extremely broad and it makes good power on the same dyno. If the weight in the car is the same then that hybrid will make that ovalport car look like a Ford Tempo on the track@!#$@##$
:nonono::nonono:
This is typical scamming!
