starter flywheel grinding

[abwamo]

My contour grinded during start up for years, it wasn't bad but I wasn't going to wait until it wouldn't start at all. So I replaced the stater with a new one, which at the time I had the Fidanza/centerforce setup. My problem didn't go away and overtime got worse. So finally I brokedown and replaced my flywheel, clutch, and starter with a new spec flywheel, new spec stage 3 clutch and new stock starter.
The Fidanza flywheel was stripped pretty bad, the starter still looked good but i didn't want to chance it, and the clutch was thrown in since the trans was dropped. Yes I do have a quaife before anyone recomends an LSD.
Well the car still grinds during start up, not as bad as it did before but at least once out of 10-20 starts "exactly like when it started 2-3 years ago".
what am i not doing here?
or what am i doing wrong?

 

[S2Knott]

i had a similar problem and i replaced my flywheel and it ended up being the starter, because the noise wasnt fixed even though there was a tooth missing on the flywheel.

 

[abwamo]

so no ideas why i still grind with a new clutch, new flywheel, and new starter.

 

[98SVTC]

so no ideas why i still grind with a new clutch, new flywheel, and new starter.

First off, the clutch doesn't have anything to do with the problem. It just goes along for the ride. Second, you didn't say whether you ever had the problem with the stock flywheel so I'd have to say that the starters you are getting don't like the Spec flywheel/ring gear setup for some reason. If that is the case, the only option I see is to go back to the stock setup. Either that or find out why there is a misalignment of the starter gear and the ring gear.
Karl

 

[Pale Horse]

First off, the clutch doesn't have anything to do with the problem. It just goes along for the ride. Second, you didn't say whether you ever had the problem with the stock flywheel so I'd have to say that the starters you are getting don't like the Spec flywheel/ring gear setup for some reason. If that is the case, the only option I see is to go back to the stock setup. Either that or find out why there is a misalignment of the starter gear and the ring gear.
Karl

No offense 98SVTC, but I do not believe this is the issue that is described. It sounds to me, more likely than not, a voltage issue. However, I DO BELEIVE the clutch/flywheel themselves are not the problem. If the Battery is not allowing enough amperes to power the starter; no matter which flywheel/clutch/starter combination you choose, then you can end up with the same result and chew flywheel gear rings and starter teeth. If you ever have dealt with the annoying high/fast-pitched starter grinding noise, then you have experienced a low/high voltage problem stemming from the battery or its connection to the positive/negative outputs.

I would definitely check the battery connections that you currently have and perhaps look into an Optima Red-Top battery or better battery terminals/grounds that are often-times provided by some of the aftermarket sound companies that are available today.

One thing you have to take into account is that you live in a cold climate. The "actuator" in a stock starter is magneto/electric. If the correct voltage is not present and/or the available magnetic pull is not efficient (due to the extreme cold/freezing), then the starter gear may not engage to the full extent, causing an incorrect placement of the starter teeth on the flywheel ring gear. (obviously this will create a severe problem over time....or not... depending on the inneficiency of the voltage/temperature).


EDIT: If you need to try a quick fix for the non-start issue...try smacking the starter assembly(large cylinder) with a long screw driver from the top of the engine bay. This seems to help in cold weather situations. Just don't hit the starter assembly too hard or puncture the cylinder. (located below the coolant hoses just aft of the firewall on the drivers side of the vehicle......)
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[S2Knott]

this morning my car wouldnt start and it mad a horrible grinding noise.

i pop started it today, and now it restarts but grinds badly, but i dont want to replace my starter if that might not be the problem.

 

[98SVTC]

No offense 98SVTC, but I do not believe this is the issue that is described. It sounds to me, more likely than not, a voltage issue. However, I DO BELEIVE the clutch/flywheel themselves are not the problem. If the Battery is not allowing enough amperes to power the starter; no matter which flywheel/clutch/starter combination you choose, then you can end up with the same result and chew flywheel gear rings and starter teeth. If you ever have dealt with the annoying high/fast-pitched starter grinding noise, then you have experienced a low/high voltage problem stemming from the battery or its connection to the positive/negative outputs.

I would definitely check the battery connections that you currently have and perhaps look into an Optima Red-Top battery or better battery terminals/grounds that are often-times provided by some of the aftermarket sound companies that are available today.

You could be right but until we know if this problem existed before the custom clutch/ring gear was installed, I still have to stick to my story. On my car, the PO put some "new" ends on the battery cables instead of replacing them and judging from the slow speed my starter spins (probably half normal) I'd have to say there's a considerable energy loss and I've never had any grinding problem, even in the winter when it can get below freezing. I didn't even know I had this "problem" until I heard a sound clip of a normal starter on this site. However I will rectify my situation when I relocate the battery to the trunk. Back to the original post, the guy said that he's had this problem for years with both a Fidenza and a Spec flywheel. A crappy electrical system would have deteriorated to the point of not working by now wouldn't you think?
Karl

 

[abwamo]

it used to grind no more than 5-10 times a year on the stock flywheel back when i bought the car 10 years ago. after 5 years of ownership i installed the fidanza, the grinding went away for the first 2 years. But about 3 years ago it started grinding again so i replaced the starter, and the problem didn't go away "still grinded every second or third try". actually just got worse until this summer it became near impossible to start.
now with the new starter & flywheel; still grinds about 2-3 times a day but it starts about 80% of the time with no grinding. i can only see this getting worse as it chews the flywheel and starter teeth.

Pale Horse, i believe you are right with the correct voltage is not present and the available magnetic pull is not efficient causing an incorrect placement of the starter teeth on the flywheel. i'm going to have my mechanic test the connections and possibly replace battery and cables.

Back into the shop this weekend. if you guys can think of anything else we can check please let me know.

thanks,

 

[98SVTC]

Thanks for the additional information. Now, if only the mechanical parts have been replaced all through the years and the problem went away for a time and then came back, would you still be looking for an electrical problem? If nothing was done to the electrical system over the total time and the problem left and then came back, how is the electrical system healing itself for a time and then failing? The only thing I would look at were the connections to the starter/battery since those are the only ones you'd play with to R&R the starter. Are these starters from Ford by the way or aftermarket rebuilds?
Karl

 

[abwamo]

i had the stock starter, then put in a new starter from Ford, and now i got an aftermarket rebuild.
why i would look at the electrical?
1. cheaper to replace wiring than dropping the tranny again to put a stock flywheel and find out the grinding is still there.
2. if my memory serves me right my problem re-started shortly (within a year) after i installed my alarm/starter system so it could be electrical.

 

[98SVTC]

Okay, well I see that a little more of the story is being added. I figured we'd get to the bottom of the situation sooner or later. Now it makes more sense that there could be a problem with the electrical/starter system since it's been modified. Would have been helpful to know this from the beginning.
Karl

 

[Pale Horse]

I would be willing to bet that if you switched to an Optima Red Top battery and put some good quality Audio Battery Terminals on, you would alleviate the problem. If you are running an afterrmarket audio system as well, I would look into using a good capacitor in conjunction with the new ends and Optima Battery. This comes from experience...not just throwing **** out there.

 

[abwamo]

Okay, well I see that a little more of the story is being added. I figured we'd get to the bottom of the situation sooner or later. Now it makes more sense that there could be a problem with the electrical/starter system since it's been modified. Would have been helpful to know this from the beginning.
Karl

i honestly never thought about wiring until now, i started going back and thinking if the wiring could've been altered. The only time the starter system was worked on before the grinding got bad was when i had the alarm/auto-starter/pager installed.

I do have an aftermarket stereo but its has been sitting on my garage floor for almost 3 years now, had to make room for baby stuff. The battery is Motomaster GR40R/72 an aftermarket replacement from Canadian Tire, less than 2 years old.

Well i dropped off the car at the shop "a family friend" and asked him to replace the wiring, but he insisted that there is nothing wrong with the wiring because he tested the current going into the starter and it was giving the right voltage/ampage...
he's going to replace the starter again "on warranty free of charge" because he believes the starter is bad. But if that doesn't fix it i'm going to relocate the battery to the trunk and rewire everything with new cables. once that is done i will install a good cap and put the stereo back in the car.

 

[abwamo]

grinding problem solved

grinding problem solved

here is a little history for everyone that has/had similar problems with their starters grinding:
1. replaced the starter with a new Ford starter to fix the grinding, problem didn't go away. concluded that the flywheel was stripped.
2. replaced the flywheel and starter. the flywheel was stripped and the problem looked like it started with the starter not engaging fully and catching the gears on the flywheel.
3. with new flywheel and rebuilt starter from Napa Auto Parts the grinding was still there.
4. installed a rebuilt starter from Ford, still grinded.
5. after examine all 3 starters we noticed the same problem with all of them: the gears had a little play, sit uneven or on a slight angle, and didn't move during engagement far enough to catch the flywheel. So my mechanic friend took a used starter rebuilt himself and installed. grinding is 100% gone "knock on wood" over a month now with no problems.
Conclusion: that there is a batch of bad starters out there so watch out before you go thru thousands of dollars of repairs, check your new or rebuilt starters from Ford or other Auto Parts Stores before you install it. you might be better off with a used one from a wrecker.