elraido
I kant speel
I don't know anyone who would by a car for full price with the engine making an abnormal sound.
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Moral dilemna with the CSVT I sold...
- Thread starter Canadian 98 CSVT
- Start date
I don't know anyone who would by a car for full price with the engine making an abnormal sound.
Like everyone else said: he knew about the tick, and didn't care. It's his fault he bought it. It's his responsibility now. You are under no moral or legal obligation to return any part of his money.
Here's the issue that I see and believe me I am no expert mechanic. When the engine I replaced on my CSVT started to tick I was able to drive it around for nearly another three weeks and finally the engine went. My mistake, I hadn't changed the oil in nearly four or five months and the cheap filter one of the oil places put on it just went bad. From my research on this website and the other contour websited concluded this. Eventually if you hear a ticking noise coming from deep down in the engine that steadily gets worse and louder it is going to end up in engine failure usually. I don't know how long you have been a member of CEG, but at some point you should have known that the engine was going to go thus a discounted price should have been applied to your selling price. CSVT are hot and in demand, but not with a blown engine. In my opinion you should give him $1200 back to replace the engine with a good low mileag used one. He still will be out the $600 or so for labor and the new parts that he should replace (Clutch, cable, underdrive pulley). I think this would be fair and you would have a clear conscious. Here's a break down on my replacement engine
Engine (44,000 miles) and shipping $1100
various parts Clutch, Damper Pulley, Plugs, Wires Belts $500
Labor $600
Total around $2100
Engine (44,000 miles) and shipping $1100
various parts Clutch, Damper Pulley, Plugs, Wires Belts $500
Labor $600
Total around $2100
I had something similar happen to me as well, my first car was an 86 Camaro 2.8 v6, bought it and then a month later in the dead of winter the thing died on me while loaded with passengers on the freeway, had it towed back to the lot where I bought it from, they say they replaced the entire upper half of the engine...it worked for another two months and then the engine threw a rod, sat in my driveway for three months until I could pay for a rebuilt motor.
At least that kid knew the car had an issue, I was under the impression that since I was going through a shop I was better off. I tried going back to the dealer again but got nothing...cost me about 3k to get it fixed.
While kids don't make great decisions, it is those bad ones that teach them their life lessons...
He knew it had issues, I would say if you feel bad then offer to help him get it fixed at a minimal cost to you (like 10-20%), but you are not obligated to do anything IMHO
At least that kid knew the car had an issue, I was under the impression that since I was going through a shop I was better off. I tried going back to the dealer again but got nothing...cost me about 3k to get it fixed.
While kids don't make great decisions, it is those bad ones that teach them their life lessons...
He knew it had issues, I would say if you feel bad then offer to help him get it fixed at a minimal cost to you (like 10-20%), but you are not obligated to do anything IMHO
everyone who is FOR repaying, or helping the guy out, and states that a "discounted price should have been given" or that the car shouldn't have sold for "full price" has no idea what "full price" is. I could sell a blown 3L with a turbo kit for 5K in a shell, right?
mods are worth something to someone... time spent is worth something to some people. quality and assuredness are worth something to some people. what the car sold for is NOT RELEVANT when referencing "full price", etc. The only reference there is, is the SELLING PRICE, and that's it.
No obligation. 2 or 3 HOURS? maybe morally I would have a harder time ignoring it.. but a WEEK? pssh..
mods are worth something to someone... time spent is worth something to some people. quality and assuredness are worth something to some people. what the car sold for is NOT RELEVANT when referencing "full price", etc. The only reference there is, is the SELLING PRICE, and that's it.
No obligation. 2 or 3 HOURS? maybe morally I would have a harder time ignoring it.. but a WEEK? pssh..
qbcsvt
Hard-core CEG'er
Bad Move by the 17 Year old, I truely think hes outta luck and will get smarter in the future....but a young teen like that probably just spent all his allowance on the car and I feel sry for the kid in that sense....
But even when I was young I wouldnt buy something that was messed up already especially if somebody told me, "Hey this here has a tick...it may be a problem in the future"..... unless price was very very good....
I say its his fault for goin with the car......
If you pulled a fast one on the kid your completely wrong, if not..Used - AS IS!!:shrug:
- Amyn
But even when I was young I wouldnt buy something that was messed up already especially if somebody told me, "Hey this here has a tick...it may be a problem in the future"..... unless price was very very good....
I say its his fault for goin with the car......
If you pulled a fast one on the kid your completely wrong, if not..Used - AS IS!!:shrug:
- Amyn
Canadian 98 CSVT
CEG'er
K guys, since it seems to be such a hot topic, I'll be honest and give you the numbers.
The ad I had posted on Craigslists in Toronto, Ontario (everything in Canadian $) was for $6499, and that was the initial ad he responded to. After the ad was posted, I had an alternator issue, so I lowered the price slowly on another website I had posted, Kijiji. By the time he responded to Craigslists, I had dropped the price on Kijiji to $4750.
I also ended up replacing the alternator and selling him the car certified and emissions tested, with a set of good (60%) winter tires on rims.
I sold it to him for $4600. So as you can see, I dropped the price almost $2000 from the ad he responded to. And I made it quite clear that it had the tick, he heard it, he drove it, he still wanted it. I took it to 3 mechanics, 2 I knew, and a potential other buyer took it to his mechanic, a Ford Dealer mechanic that all said the same thing, valvetrain, more specifically - hydraulic lash adjuster. After listening to Desiato's clip with better speakers, it was a much higher pitched tick. I also know rod-knock after experiencing it myself a few times. Trust me, I blew a 1965 Olds 425 engine because I was driving it hard... guess what age... 19, young and reckless. I had just bought the engine for $750, and less than 2 weeks, boom. Thats why I feel bad, but at the same time, I have no idea what he did. I checked the oil before I delivered it, was slightly over full, as we are supposed to keep the SVTs. Also, was a Ford oil change when i just bought it, and I only had it 5000kms (3000miles) It just got an oil change again at 4500kms of ownership, 500km before schedule. So he got delivery with a fresh oil and filter change.
So now hearing the numbers, and the ad he initially replied to, did I discount the car? Does it sound like I pulled a fast one on a naive young kid? Opinions appreciated here! I just want to finalize my decision and not leave the kid hanging, but I want to do the right thing.
The ad I had posted on Craigslists in Toronto, Ontario (everything in Canadian $) was for $6499, and that was the initial ad he responded to. After the ad was posted, I had an alternator issue, so I lowered the price slowly on another website I had posted, Kijiji. By the time he responded to Craigslists, I had dropped the price on Kijiji to $4750.
I also ended up replacing the alternator and selling him the car certified and emissions tested, with a set of good (60%) winter tires on rims.
I sold it to him for $4600. So as you can see, I dropped the price almost $2000 from the ad he responded to. And I made it quite clear that it had the tick, he heard it, he drove it, he still wanted it. I took it to 3 mechanics, 2 I knew, and a potential other buyer took it to his mechanic, a Ford Dealer mechanic that all said the same thing, valvetrain, more specifically - hydraulic lash adjuster. After listening to Desiato's clip with better speakers, it was a much higher pitched tick. I also know rod-knock after experiencing it myself a few times. Trust me, I blew a 1965 Olds 425 engine because I was driving it hard... guess what age... 19, young and reckless. I had just bought the engine for $750, and less than 2 weeks, boom. Thats why I feel bad, but at the same time, I have no idea what he did. I checked the oil before I delivered it, was slightly over full, as we are supposed to keep the SVTs. Also, was a Ford oil change when i just bought it, and I only had it 5000kms (3000miles) It just got an oil change again at 4500kms of ownership, 500km before schedule. So he got delivery with a fresh oil and filter change.
So now hearing the numbers, and the ad he initially replied to, did I discount the car? Does it sound like I pulled a fast one on a naive young kid? Opinions appreciated here! I just want to finalize my decision and not leave the kid hanging, but I want to do the right thing.
You have to understand if you feel bad just give him a few hundred dollars and have a clear conscious over the matter.
Honestly i would no Way pay 4600 for a lifter problem on a svt. Since they can be bought for 4500 with a good motor.
Again its up to you. Yes the kid is naive and stupid but obviously its up to you if you feel obligated to help him. This all comes down to how you feel about the situation. Nothing others or myself can say to make you swing one way or another.
Lets take a poll on whether to give him the money or not.
$400 is plenty to help him find and engine. Since 90% is the kids fault and he knew about it.
No= 1
Yes= 0
Honestly i would no Way pay 4600 for a lifter problem on a svt. Since they can be bought for 4500 with a good motor.
Again its up to you. Yes the kid is naive and stupid but obviously its up to you if you feel obligated to help him. This all comes down to how you feel about the situation. Nothing others or myself can say to make you swing one way or another.
Lets take a poll on whether to give him the money or not.
$400 is plenty to help him find and engine. Since 90% is the kids fault and he knew about it.
No= 1
Yes= 0
Desiato
Hard-core CEG'er
This is just my general opinion based on my observations. I understand that I don't know the dynamics of this situation. I'm really not judging you, but putting myself in your position. I commend you for obtaining feedback at least. Many people would have tried to dump the car with no disclosure to the buyer without telling anyone.
When I thought my car may have had the valve/lifter tick, I took it off the road immediately researched the issue on the CEG and didn't drive it until I took it to someone whom I trust to diagnose such an issue. I considered this issue to be catastrophic if not dealt with.
It turns out that my SVT does not have that issue and it sounds nothing like the video of Mark_West's doomed engine from this thread: http://contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=15007
If my car did have that issue and knowing what happened to Mark_West's car and other CEG members over the years, I wouldn't drive it until I had the issue fixed.
If I sold it to someone, I'd make sure that they understood that the engine likely had a major issue that required immediate attention and that the car was not necessarily safe to drive because the engine could fail at any time.
To me, it sounds like the car wasn't sold with the understanding that it shouldn't be driven. We're not talking a leaking strut here. It should have been off the road in my opinion.
To complicate the issue further, the defective car was sold to a teen. There are a lot of smart kids on the CEG, but most 17 year old kids are impulsive and prone to make poor decisions. While they may be 'ripe for the picking', I think it's unethical to pass a poor deal on to someone because they don't know better.
Sure you can say 'buyer beware', but the same can be said for a myriad of legal scams that result in naive people losing their savings. Legal? Sure. Ethical? Nope.
I'm surprised that more people don't share this opinion. I've asked a few friends about it and they all think selling a defective car to a 17 year old kid is shady.
If I were in your position now, I would offer $1,000.00 and put him in touch with someone whom can install a 3L for him. I would place the value of your car with the issue it had @ around $3k to someone who understood the issue and wanted to fix it, depending on other miscellaneous factors.
Again, I'm really not judging you. I know that I don't have all the facts. But based on what I know, that's what I would have done... I think.
When I thought my car may have had the valve/lifter tick, I took it off the road immediately researched the issue on the CEG and didn't drive it until I took it to someone whom I trust to diagnose such an issue. I considered this issue to be catastrophic if not dealt with.
It turns out that my SVT does not have that issue and it sounds nothing like the video of Mark_West's doomed engine from this thread: http://contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=15007
If my car did have that issue and knowing what happened to Mark_West's car and other CEG members over the years, I wouldn't drive it until I had the issue fixed.
If I sold it to someone, I'd make sure that they understood that the engine likely had a major issue that required immediate attention and that the car was not necessarily safe to drive because the engine could fail at any time.
To me, it sounds like the car wasn't sold with the understanding that it shouldn't be driven. We're not talking a leaking strut here. It should have been off the road in my opinion.
To complicate the issue further, the defective car was sold to a teen. There are a lot of smart kids on the CEG, but most 17 year old kids are impulsive and prone to make poor decisions. While they may be 'ripe for the picking', I think it's unethical to pass a poor deal on to someone because they don't know better.
Sure you can say 'buyer beware', but the same can be said for a myriad of legal scams that result in naive people losing their savings. Legal? Sure. Ethical? Nope.
I'm surprised that more people don't share this opinion. I've asked a few friends about it and they all think selling a defective car to a 17 year old kid is shady.
If I were in your position now, I would offer $1,000.00 and put him in touch with someone whom can install a 3L for him. I would place the value of your car with the issue it had @ around $3k to someone who understood the issue and wanted to fix it, depending on other miscellaneous factors.
Again, I'm really not judging you. I know that I don't have all the facts. But based on what I know, that's what I would have done... I think.
PacificTourG
Veteran CEG'er
Remember the $4600 is in CAD. That's about $4,390 US. As others have said, I also think the car should have been sold for less than that price.
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Reebs
meester super sleuth
If you were completely honest with the kid like you are saying, then you should NOT feel obligated to pay anything to him. And with a noise like that, he should have been smarter. I always make sure to be 100% honest when selling things so that crap doesn't come back in my face. Sounds to me like this is not your problem anymore.
Canadian 98 CSVT
CEG'er
Yes, keep in mind 2 factors here... $4600 is CDN$, which happens to be a good USD price at the moment. But also consider this when the value is of interest... In canada there were only 200 1998 CSVTs brought here, and in 1999 another 200. In 2000, we didn't get any. So consider the rarity of the car here... yes, it does demand more money this side of the border.
Also, I had 2 mechanics I trust, and an independant mechanic that another potential buyer trusted look at the car, all telling me the same thing. All telling me it was okay to drive, but I might want to fix it to get rid of the noise. The last opinion was last sunday, and I sold the car to the kid tuesday. I even told him that I was going to open the engine up and fix it later in the week, but he wanted it because he was afraid I would sell it for more after fixing it. The other potential customer that had me take it to his mechanic wanted it if I fixed the noise at the full $4750 asking price. The kid wanted it right away. What was I supposed to do?
The more I think about the events leading up to it, the more I feel confident that it was no fault of my own. I'm not a shady guy, and if I sell a car, i always offer to be available after the sale if they ever have any questions.
As an example, I just built a new house, and sold my 86 Mustang GT Convert for the down payment. Well, after the sale, the car had a gas leak at the tank. Was I obligated to fix it? No, did I... yes. But that was just something minor that I did because I knew that car inside out, I built it from the ground up. In fact, I still talk to that guy all the time, and give him opinions on upgrades he's considering.
I sold him the SVT with full confidence in the car. Hell, it still had pleanty of go on the hour and 20 minute drive to his house! What he did to it, I don't know. Do you really think a 17 yr old is going to be honest with me if he was running the crap out of it? Not likely.
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Canadian 98 CSVT
CEG'er
You guys will like this, I'm cutting and pasting an email history, but I will remove the names to protect myself and the buyer, all the names in blue....
"I'll discuss it with my parents tonight and I should have a definite answer for you some time tonight.
So to confirm the price, it's $4600 certified and you to drop it off in Toronto right?
"I'll discuss it with my parents tonight and I should have a definite answer for you some time tonight.
So to confirm the price, it's $4600 certified and you to drop it off in Toronto right?
From: Canadian 98 CSVT
To: Buyer Email
Subject: Re: SVT Contour
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:40:20 -0400
I'll be honest buyer, I just showed it to another guy today, and he is very interested. The only thing concerning him was that same "tick" you heard. So I brought it to his mechanic, who happens to be a retired Ford Dealership mechanic, and he said the same thing, sticky lifter or sticky valve. I've also narrowed it down to which cylinder its on, so i may end up fixing it. He is also willing to pay the $4750 cert if the tick is addressed. I don't know what to say though. I gave you the offer of $4600, and I will stand by that. But, I will leave the tick for you to deal with if you choose to. If you want me to address it, then I'll have to stay at the $4750. Let me know what you think. (The offer of doing the waterpump for the price of the pump and the belt still stands too, I don't mind doing that.)
Canadian 98 CSVT
----- Original Message -----
From: Buyer Email
To: Canadian 98 CSVT
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: SVT Contour
Hey I'm back in Toronto now and I hope you didn't sell the car or anything while I was gone lol. I actually haven't seen my mom in person since I got back but when i talked to her on the phone, she said I can get the contour 90% so I hope the car is still there.
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:51:26 -0400
From: Canadian 98 CSVT
Subject: RE: SVT Contour
To: buyer email
Hey buyer, I'm with you on that notion, it keeps you more alert, whereas the auto allows you to get too comfortable driving, and you tend to concentrate on other things. I love stick, and get very bored driving auto. I'm only giving it up for a short time, as the Mustang I plan to get down the road will be stick. Don't rush anything, I'm likely going to crack the engine open and fix the sticky valve, or lifter, whatever is ticking! So the car will be out of comission for a few days anyways. But, on the other side of that, I will be putting it in the Autotrader when thats done. So, you have some time, but don't wait too long! lol
Oh, and use the arguement that stick is better on gas too! lol
Canadian 98 CSVT
So as you can see, I offered to fix the car, I told him to take his time and not rush anything. He still persisted and wanted it. Hell, I even offered to replace the waterpump that he was concerned about for the price of the pump! After being able to look back through the emails, I have lost any form of guilt. I thank eveyone for their opinions, and anymore that may come.
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Desiato
Hard-core CEG'er
Well, if you truly didn't believe that engine was going to fail in the near future, I don't think you can be faulted. My research on the issue your car probably had told me that it was a very bad idea to drive it, especially after what happened to Mark_West. I think the engine was a timebomb and that should have been conveyed to the buyer, even if he was too stupid to fix it. But if that wasn't your belief, you acted fairly.
...and you offered to fix the engine for $150 more! Wow. Who turns down a $150 engine repair? This car was probably going to die sooner than later if this guy wasn't willing to invest in repairs and maintenance. $150 is small change for car work.
...and you offered to fix the engine for $150 more! Wow. Who turns down a $150 engine repair? This car was probably going to die sooner than later if this guy wasn't willing to invest in repairs and maintenance. $150 is small change for car work.
LilCe98
Hard-core CEG'er
I think the kid needs to chalk it up as one of those hard lessons learned. His parents are probably the ones pushing him to sell it back to you. Like i said before i don't think you have any obligation in this matter. He know about the problem, but still wanted it. He had a week to fixed the problem, but probably continued to drive it hard (which i'm sure we can all agree he probably did) He did not do his research on the car or symptoms of the tick. If you want to clear your conscience just give him back $500 or so (that shouldn't hurt your Stang dreams too much) and direct him down the 3L path. Tell him the benefits of the 3L and send him on his way
rollinstylee
Hard-core CEG'er
I don't think you have any financial obligation to him at all. Everyone here who is talking about the value of the car and what it should have been sold for is completely missing the point IMO. What they would pay for the car is 100% irrelevant. The true VALUE of the car is what the BUYER is willing to pay for it. Until you have the money in your hand, "appropriate" values are just imaginary figures. The fact of the matter is, this kid was willing to pay $4600 or whatever for the car, tick and everything. That's what it was worth to him. Was that a stupid high price to pay for a CSVT with a pronounced engine tick? Yes...but that's in no way the seller's judgment to make. Why sell a car for less than you can get? No one forced this kid to buy the car for that price. What I'd do is give the kid $150, the amount you offered to fix the problem for. Then you should have NO moral dilemma, plus he'll learn what a mistake he made by being cheap with an engine.:troutslap:
**
Don't feel bad about selling your car to a kid who blew it up. Seriously, everybody will remember how they drove their cars when they were 17!!
I remember i used to drive hammer down everywhere all the time at that age, 17 is defiantly not mature enough for a 200 hp car and you know thats why the engine got seized, he probably tried to push it to the limit on the 401 or the 407 ETR or something. And 4700 bucks is an amazing deal, I bought my SVT Contour in Ottawa in may for an extra 3 Grand. I was looking around on autotrader.ca, and you couldn't find an SVTC for under 5500 and that one had over 200,000 kms on it.
Don't feel bad about selling your car to a kid who blew it up. Seriously, everybody will remember how they drove their cars when they were 17!!
I remember i used to drive hammer down everywhere all the time at that age, 17 is defiantly not mature enough for a 200 hp car and you know thats why the engine got seized, he probably tried to push it to the limit on the 401 or the 407 ETR or something. And 4700 bucks is an amazing deal, I bought my SVT Contour in Ottawa in may for an extra 3 Grand. I was looking around on autotrader.ca, and you couldn't find an SVTC for under 5500 and that one had over 200,000 kms on it.
98SVTC
Hard-core CEG'er
Sounds like three mechanics misdiagnosed the noise. How a lifter problem can seize an engine is questionable. More likely dropped a valve or spun a bearing to keep the engine from turning over.
However to those who have posted that things changed (and the seller should buy the car back) because the kid didn't know what he was doing, at what point should a "kid" know what he's doing? Who is going to provide that information? It's bad enough the government is (supposedly) trying to protect us from ourselves, which generally gets a thumbs down from the residents of this sight. Are we now supposed to run some sort of background check on a prospective buyer in order to see if he is capable of taking care of a vehicle with a known and disclosed (or unknown) problem?
When does the responsibility fall on the other guy? :shrug:
Karl
However to those who have posted that things changed (and the seller should buy the car back) because the kid didn't know what he was doing, at what point should a "kid" know what he's doing? Who is going to provide that information? It's bad enough the government is (supposedly) trying to protect us from ourselves, which generally gets a thumbs down from the residents of this sight. Are we now supposed to run some sort of background check on a prospective buyer in order to see if he is capable of taking care of a vehicle with a known and disclosed (or unknown) problem?
When does the responsibility fall on the other guy? :shrug:
Karl
todras
Pretty fly for a white guy *cowbell*
Even at 16 I wasn't dumb enough to buy a car with a tick unless I was fully prepared to replace the engine. Buyers issue now not yours. For all you know he took a right hand sweeper at 6500 rpm and cooked a bearing.