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Hybrid or Straight 3L

M

moderndino

CEG'er
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Messages
53
Location
south central PA
There's a lively discussion going on at fordcontour.org about the validity of melding the two engines together. I'd recently bought an SVT to build later, and was starting my hunt for the best 3L version to use when I came across their post. There's a fair arguement regarding the adaptation of the SVT lower manafold to the oval port head. General agreement that the SVT cams reach higher RPM, but graphed performance equal to a hybrid from a well tuned Vanilla 3L.
As for me, I may have an SVT engine available for a fellow CEGer who either wants a complete core to rebuild his as a 2.5, or doesn't feel the hype contrary to hybrid is true.
It also apears some over there are just discovering the pressure port on the VVT blocks that needs to be plugged for 2.5 heads. It liberally oils the cam chain if not addressed, but it is starving the bearings throughout the engine, and a cause of hybrid failure.
A nice resource regarding the 3.0 is the rebuilder's identification site: http://www.automotiverebuilder.com/ar/eb90546.htm
 
i didn't get into the discussion over there but when i have to build a new engine it will be a hybrid.

I will build a hybrid as I do not like the idea of port matching or filling the LIM to match the oval port heads. I agree that the off set injector will cause problems with mixing the setup. I will use the 2.5 heads with the SVT cams and intake as I like the look of the stock intake and like that nothing needs to be fabbed up to make it work.

Second I like how the secondaries work. As I see it the engine is basically broken into to halves if you view dyno plots. The secondary system give you decent power down low and up high, if you went with one or the other you would have all your power down low or just up high. having been in and driven an 07 escape with the straight 3L oval port it just had a bla feeling to me. I like the extra power you get when the secondaries open.

But then again in my future I want the Natuilus turbo kit so as discussed keeping the stock intake doesn't matter much.

So again in terms of building a hybrid is pretty simple and straight forward to me and easiest to install. Also from the one hybrid that I drove it isn't gutless down low, it pulled very nicely all around.
 
BrApple said:
i didn't get into the discussion over there but when i have to build a new engine it will be a hybrid.

I will build a hybrid as I do not like the idea of port matching or filling the LIM to match the oval port heads. I agree that the off set injector will cause problems with mixing the setup. I will use the 2.5 heads with the SVT cams and intake as I like the look of the stock intake and like that nothing needs to be fabbed up to make it work.

Second I like how the secondaries work. As I see it the engine is basically broken into to halves if you view dyno plots. The secondary system give you decent power down low and up high, if you went with one or the other you would have all your power down low or just up high. having been in and driven an 07 escape with the straight 3L oval port it just had a bla feeling to me. I like the extra power you get when the secondaries open.

But then again in my future I want the Natuilus turbo kit so as discussed keeping the stock intake doesn't matter much.

So again in terms of building a hybrid is pretty simple and straight forward to me and easiest to install. Also from the one hybrid that I drove it isn't gutless down low, it pulled very nicely all around.
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I dont know why anyone would put back in 2.5 heads.... Hell its probably the reason half of everyone goes 3.0 in the first place. I dont buy into half the bull**** on FCO or NECO regarding the port matching of SVT intakes to oval port heads.... That combo has been real world tested to work... If there were significant issues with the injector spray dont you think it would have presented itself in many of the motors running today... like the 375 whp turbo motor in toms car!
 
You touched the places that I also like. The look of the dual runner casting on top of the motor, and the butterflies (meant both ways) at mid peddle.

I think I'm willing to trade both those for an engine that I can assume will last a long service life without building first.

I had thought I'd use some SVT parts, cams as you mentioned, but I think I'll haunt the forums and watch the dyno graphs on the vanilla 3L to see what they do before I tamper with the SVT motor that someone else would prefer unmolested.

The lighter flywheel would have been on my cannibal list, but I believe a lighter aftermarket one is available. My car will be 2000 lb, so flywheel mass isn't a plus, and snappier throtle is.

For the intake parts, I'd want larger than 3L comes with, but no need to rob an SVT when others are larger still.

So long as headers and intake restrictions are improved, injectors proportioned, and an adjustable management system is used with a 3L, I don't think I'll do anything with my SVT but store it for now.

Gar
 
You can have all those things by port matching. My 3.0 has svt uppers and lowers. Still have secondaries too!
 
I cant say which 3L is more reliable or has better numbers or anything like that b/c i've never built one myself. But i have driven both str8 3.0L and the 3L hybrid. On the butt dyno the hybrid felt like it had more higher end power than the str8 3L, other than that they felt identical.

.......just my 2cents
 
novellino21 said:
I cant say which 3L is more reliable or has better numbers or anything like that b/c i've never built one myself. But i have driven both str8 3.0L and the 3L hybrid. On the butt dyno the hybrid felt like it had more higher end power than the str8 3L, other than that they felt identical.

.......just my 2cents
Click to expand...

SRT8 3L??????????

wtf is that?!?
 
run the 3 liter heads with the SVT intake manifolds. contact bugazki or however he spells it. they make plates that you can bolt down as templates for the porting. the injector spray efficiency all depends on how good you are with porting. dont waste your time putting in a hybrid setup unless you want to upgrade everything possible for oiling.

personally i went with the taurus block 2003 with SVT intake manifolds. the only thing i had to do was grind the heads (engine upside down on the stand, so shavings go out, and also do everything you can to stop anything from getting into the ports) and do the usual 3L swap stuff. it's actually just as easy as the hybrid setup and makes the most power (between the 3 styles of build everyone does)

SVT cams are a must! ive ridden in two full 3L motors..... and my split port 3L and there is no comparison. full 3L's make 180-190, hybrid make 190-210, and "oval port" (should be "split port") make 200-230 this is a generalization obviously some motors are freaks and some are turds. good luck on your choice!
 
BrApple said:
i didn't get into the discussion over there but when i have to build a new engine it will be a hybrid.

I will build a hybrid as I do not like the idea of port matching or filling the LIM to match the oval port heads. I agree that the off set injector will cause problems with mixing the setup. I will use the 2.5 heads with the SVT cams and intake as I like the look of the stock intake and like that nothing needs to be fabbed up to make it work.

Second I like how the secondaries work. As I see it the engine is basically broken into to halves if you view dyno plots. The secondary system give you decent power down low and up high, if you went with one or the other you would have all your power down low or just up high. having been in and driven an 07 escape with the straight 3L oval port it just had a bla feeling to me. I like the extra power you get when the secondaries open.

But then again in my future I want the Natuilus turbo kit so as discussed keeping the stock intake doesn't matter much.
Click to expand...

Brian,

Hybrids compression is something like 11.25:1 which is not your friend if you plan on getting the turbo kit. Also, I have the 3L heads and I didn't JB weld my heads, that is why bugzuki made those intake plates which work wonderful by the way. I, as well as many other 3L's are still running the secondaires.

Just my .2 cents.
 
well then I need to look into things more, I do understand about the high compression. i would need to see these plates and what they do ...
 
Tyler,

I can visualize a lot more then 3 unique configurations. Can you help me understand these 3 as you know them, and do they have some accepted naming convention that everyone uses (or should use)? Perhaps some critisms are aimed at one configuration, when the previous poster was referring to a different one.

Then for everyone,

Hybrid to me means mixing head (2.5) and block (3L), or whole engine (3L) and cam (2.5). I would also accept that mixing intake manifolds relative to heads is a hybrid also, but at that turn, lots of variations arrise.

The use of a larger inlet (air filter, MAF, or cold air), injector size, exhaust, or forced induction doesn't mean hybrid engine to me, although if the parts are borrowed from a different model, I guess gramatically it's arguably a kind of hybrid. But I don't want to argue these points.

I certainly want the oil return improvement. That's a function of 3L heads. I want the larger displacement. That's the block. I haven't seen exact duration and lift specs for either SVT cam or regular 3L cam, so I'll leave that for later review. (could be that the split dual runner mainfold is matched to differences in the two intake cam lobes) Between the split intake of the 2.5, and the oval intake of the 3L there seams to be the root of contention. I'm left to ask, where's the 3L intake poor? Why's there a need to use 2.5 intake parts? Is it because of the SVT cam? Then when you get into the grinding/filling of either the intake or the head to mate them, I can't see the merit yet.

This isn't intended to flame up anyone, or become a place for a rumble, I'm just looking for practical justification for undermining the 3L intake manifold and head combo.

Gar
 
moderndino said:
This isn't intended to flame up anyone, or become a place for a rumble, I'm just looking for practical justification for undermining the 3L intake manifold and head combo.

Gar
Click to expand...

As I understand it, if you use the LIM and up from a 2.5L you do not have to mess with the fuel rail.

I am also trying to determine the best setup for my situation and would like to use my current fuel rail (return style). I also prefer the look of the 2.5L UIM. Mating the 3.0L heads to the 2.5L intakes is something I am still contemplating....
 
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Ooh, ooh!! (raises hand) I have one!

Leave it bone stock. The way Ford intended. Our cars don't stand much of a chance at being worth big bucks, but almost without exception, cars that are modified from stock take a value hit. Furthermore, there's something just fantastic to me about owning and maintaining a car the way it rolled out of the factory -- in this case, Claycomo, MO. :cool:
 
LauraSVT said:
Ooh, ooh!! (raises hand) I have one!

Leave it bone stock. The way Ford intended. Our cars don't stand much of a chance at being worth big bucks, but almost without exception, cars that are modified from stock take a value hit. Furthermore, there's something just fantastic to me about owning and maintaining a car the way it rolled out of the factory -- in this case, Claycomo, MO. :cool:
Click to expand...

Lame.

Once you drive a 3.0 the 2.5 just doesn't do it anymore. Factory? Hmppph lame. Everything is better modified.

Modified cars may take a value hit, but they are way more fun :)
 
Pudmunkie said:
Everything is better modified.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I've seen a lot of people seriously screw up the drivability of their cars via mods.

In my opinion, modding should be left to those who enjoy tweaking, trial and error, and problem solving.. and those whom car afford to do it right. Those who are just looking for the result are usually in for more trouble than they're looking for in the long run.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining a stock car well. It's more than most people seem to be capable of.

SVT Contours are a lot of fun out of the box. The right decision for many people is probably to keep it stock rather than doing what everyone on a forum tells them to do. Look at open element filters, what percentage of people truly gain a practical benefit from them? Many don't clean them or use a heatshield and are probably hurting their performance in the end.

Too many people want a 'modded' car without the desire to put in the work -- to me, modding is more about the work than the result.
 
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