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May not be Spun Bearing

96_98_SE

CEG'er
Joined
Sep 1, 2002
Messages
35
Location
Mustang (OKC), OK
This is a follow-on to the thread I started in the Old Forums in August -- Old Thread

Being curious, I took some time this evening to pull the bearings off and inspect them. Here is a picture of some of the bearings (the others were very similar):
bearings.jpg


(The 'shiny' spot is a reflection from an overhead light.) From what I can tell, these bearings look to be in great shape for the engine's mileage (85K). If the bearings aren't the problem, then what is?

Here's a video clip of the noise the engine was making: Engine Noise

Valve noise?
Timing chain noise?
North Korea testing nukes-in-my-engine noise?

Thanks for your input!
 
I can't play the sound clip so I'm only going to guess. The other likely cause of a similar noise is valvetrain. Perhaps one of the cam followers pop out of place. I would suggest pulling the cam covers for inspection.
 
I removed the Valve Covers last night -- everything seems normal; nothing is loose and there aren't any metal objects anywhere.

Is there a chance that something in the transmission could be making that repetitive metal-on-metal noise? I'd hate to purchase a replacement engine, only to find out that it was something transmission related!
 
The metal on metal noise is only on start off? I have a metal on metal noise. I have noticed that every MTX75 contour I have driven has it on take off.

Aaron
 
Damn that sounds a lot like a bearing but they look good. No metal in the pan? It has to be a head issue if it's not a bearing.
 
This 98 is the third Duratec MTX I've owned -- none have exhibited any 'metal-on-metal' noise at startup. Some of the 95's had timing chain noise, but that sound was entirely different.

The clutch in the vehicle is the one that came from the factory. It has 85K miles on it, but did not exhibit any slipping behavior. My Spec-1 in my 96SE had a metallic rattle to it during the first few thousand miles -- now that it's fully broken in, it's fairly quiet.

When I first dropped the oil pan in August, I ran a large magnet through the bottom of the pan and in the oil drain pan I had used -- not a single speck of metal showed up.

I've heard about Shift Tower bolts shearing off and dropping into the transmission. If this happened, could it make that noise?

It's a good thing this vehicle isn't a daily driver anymore -- it might take some time to figure out what's wrong with it!
 
You have confirmed that you have oil pressure correct?

If so check the following,

Carbon build up on the top of cylinder walls and cylinder head. A carbon ring will make a bad bearing sound when the piston hits it. Check the piston rings for excessive carbon and use your hand to feel for a ring at the top of the each bore. While you are at it, check the wrist pins for play and check for cracks and deformation of the pistons.

A bad vibration dampener (crankshaft pulley) can also make a noise similar to your sound clip.

Timing chain tensioner and guides.

You can eliminate the transmission by keeping it in gear with the clutch depressed. This will stop the input shaft from spinning.

It might be helpful to know when this noise started. First start cold, After a long trip, After a drag race?


jeff
 
All of the rockers look fine -- no abnormalities that I can see (with them still being bolted in place).

The oil pressure light was not illuminated.

The crankshaft pulley is a DMD -- it looks the same as it did when I put it on 3 years ago. Yes, I used a new TTY bolt when I installed it.

I won't be able to check the timing chain components until I pull the engine.

Thanks (mercman) for the info on the transmission. Too bad I can't test that now, as the engine is in many pieces! The 3 times I started it (5-10 seconds run-time each time), I had the transmission in neutral with the clutch depressed (because I had just started it).

The noise first started after the vehicle had been sitting for 2 days. This was during early August, so the weather was quite warm. The vehicle was running with a full 6 quarts of 5W-30 and a Motorcraft oil filter. During the 2 days of downtime, I had repaired spark plug threads in one of the cylinders -- the combustion chamber was thoroughly vacuumed out to remove any pieces aluminum. There were no signs of cylinder impact on any of the 6 spark plugs. The tops of the cylinders (from what I can see through the spark plug holes), are relatively clean and unmarred. The vehicle was never raced -- it was my wife's daily driver and she rarely even got on it enough to open the secondaries (what a shame!). Immediately prior, the vehicle had 'spit' out a spark plug due to weak threads (a previous owner had obviously changed the spark plugs when the engine was hot -- I had fixed another cylinder's threads 2 years ago). After the spark plug was spit out, I had the vehicle towed back to my house. It was so dissappointing to repair the spark plug threads and be greeted with that metal-on-metal noise on start-up. :(
 
Did tou check to make sure you didn't have a misfiring plug, I know i had a plug misfire and sounded alot like the noise you had even though i have a 4 cyl. and you have the 6 cyl.
 
I probably should have mentioned that my initial troubleshooting included swapping out the spark plug wire to the cylinder whose spark plug I had rethreaded. I had installed a new spark plug -- it didn't occur to me to swap in another spark plug. I did set the gap appropriately on the new plug.

Being a V-style engine, I think it'd be significantly less prone to noise/vibration/harshness (NVH) if just one cylinder (a center one at that) wasn't firing. The sound is definitely a quick, repetitive, metal-on-metal clanking.

It looks like I'll be in the market for a replacement engine. Had this not been a vehicle that I already planned on selling (growing family!), I would have readily dropped in a 3.0L. I've thought about swapping the 2.5L from my 96SE into the 98SE, then putting a 3.0L in the 96SE (my daily driver), but I don't feel like having 2 vehicles torn apart at the same time -- I like my garage clean!
 
The only sound like that I have heard that wasn't a bearing was my very problem.

I bent the number one cylinder's piston rod enough to tap the crank with each revolution.

bearings were perfect, and I would have SWORN it was a bearing. Sounded IDENTICAL.
 
If yours "sounded identical" and your bearings were perfect, as mine are, then that could be the problem. In any case, it looks like the 'cure' is dropping in a replacement engine or selling the vehicle as-is -- several folks were interested, but live too far away. :(

What would cause a piston rod to bend, yet not affect anything else?
 
If yours "sounded identical" and your bearings were perfect, as mine are, then that could be the problem. In any case, it looks like the 'cure' is dropping in a replacement engine or selling the vehicle as-is -- several folks were interested, but live too far away. :(

What would cause a piston rod to bend, yet not affect anything else?

Er..... Ray went snorkelling or at least his car did. :blackeye:

So..

If you were to fill a cylinder with a fluid that wouldn't compress.. at ALL.. what would the cylinder pressures be when you came around to the compression stroke? A HELL of a lot higher than anything you will EVER boost your engine to.

Well, that's what happened.

I came around a curve, across a low spot and in to a deep recess of water after a heavy rain. Pooled the water around the filter, and sucked it in to the engine. Cylinder 1 rod bent, due to hydrolock.





I wouldn't avoid stock rods for a lot of reasons... the above being a pretty damn good one.
 
Ouch! Poor connecting rod...

Water 'injection' wasn't an issue with mine; however, something somewhere in the engine is kaput.

Could the oil pump make a metallic noise like that?
 
If it happened immediately after installing the spark plug thread insert then it is most likely something on top of the piston.

I have had more luck with keeping the chips out of the cylinder using heavy grease on the tap to hold the chips rather than vacuuming out the cylinder after things have dropped.
 
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