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Stock Internals Adios!

BAD SVT

Addicted CEG'er
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
6,521
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Formerly Las Vegas, now Dallas TX
So after three engines, i've decided to wise up & go forged. My parts are all just about here for my Turbo build, & so i thought i'd create a thread for it. I'll be going with Wiseco Pistons & K1 rods. Now i've swap'd numerous 3Ls, but this will be the first time i'l be delving past the heads into the rods & pistons. I've done enough research to be confident enough to tackle this myself. But in case i run into any issues, i'd love you all's help. Couple of questions tho;
The present 3L in the car that bit the dust has 18k miles. The car was in boost when the rods shot through the block spilling oil everywhere. I thereafter drove it another mile or so to get her off the road. The one i recently purchased from a junkyard that was prepped by a machine shop has about 150k. My question is; Is it adviseable to grab the oil pump off the 18k mile engine despite the failure, or ride the 150k one? Will any pieces of the destroyed rods find its way to the oil pump compromising it's function?
Also, no reason i can't reuse the 18k mile heads right? Thanks all.
 
I definitely would NOT run the oil pump that has 150K on it... That would suck to go through the work of rebuilding your engine and going all out with forged internals...to have it fail because the high-mileage oil pump failed...

Someone else can chime in about the oil pump w/18K on it... not sure if you could sufficiently be sure it's cleaned of all metal bits or not...
 
... not only cleaning but score marks. Score marks = flow loss.

Look in CSVT#49's build thread for this issue .... G.
 
I definitely would NOT run the oil pump that has 150K on it... That would suck to go through the work of rebuilding your engine and going all out with forged internals...to have it fail because the high-mileage oil pump failed...
Someone else can chime in about the oil pump w/18K on it... not sure if you could sufficiently be sure it's cleaned of all metal bits or not...
Thx man. I did kinda know in my mind that I wouldn't be using the high mileage one. I was just hoping I wouldn't have to purchase another.



... not only cleaning but score marks. Score marks = flow loss.

Look in CSVT#49's build thread for this issue .... G.
Thx g. That's a whole lotta thread to go through. Do u remember exactly what issue with his oil pump he was having?
 
CSVT#49 was looking at using a pump from an engine with valve timing (mazda i think).... but after consulting on the Noble forum, he was told they were all the same.

Can't remember where in the thread that discussion is ... maybe a year ago ..... G.
 
CSVT#49 was looking at using a pump from an engine with valve timing (mazda i think).... but after consulting on the Noble forum, he was told they were all the same.

Can't remember where in the thread that discussion is ... maybe a year ago ..... G.
Ok cool. Thx. From what I see online they aren't as pricey as I imagined. Any pros to getting a reputable aftermarket performance one over a stocker?
 
i'd pm Mike and he'll point you in the right direction. I'm sure if there was a better pump than stock, he would have heard about it.

I'll be doing a 3.0L at some point ..... interested to see how you get on ...G.
 
i'd pm Mike and he'll point you in the right direction. I'm sure if there was a better pump than stock, he would have heard about it.

I'll be doing a 3.0L at some point ..... interested to see how you get on ...G.

True. I found one made by mellis or sumthn like that. This is my 6th swap. Once I get past the rods n pistons, it's cake.
 
IIRC Mike looked into the oil pump and came to the conclusion that the stock pump is good for plenty of HP. I believe he talked with some high HP noble owners running stock oil pumps. Sure he'll chime in.

In fact I think I have a low mile oil pump from Devins forged 3L cougar engine I parted out if your interested.
 
generally its not high HP builds that you have problems with the oil pump (unless it flat out cant supply enough flow to keep enough oil on the bearings). there are 3S guys running way more power than any Contour and they are still on the stock oil pump (different pump but same design). upgraded pumps (or billet internals) are typically only needed on really high RPM applications.

as far as reusing the heads, they can be reused but they need to be completely disassembled and thoroughly cleaned by a machine shop. any little shaving that could have made its way up to the heads (including rod bearing material) is able to make its way back down to the pan and through the system again which could lead to another failure. I would also recommend replacing the HLAs as they just cant really be cleaned very well and they can trap tiny particles of bearings and then release them later. the turbo is another piece that should be rebuilt and cleaned. basically anything that has oil flowing through it needs to either be replaced or very thoroughly cleaned (oil cooler as well)
 
I agree, I know this isn't a no money spared build but I also suggest taking a little time and money to make sure you aren't shooting yourself in the foot. With something as important and relatively cheap as an oil pump it is best to get new. I did too remember in Mikes thread that it was found that the stock one was sufficient. Worth the read for your own sanity. As for the heads, i think your riding the fence. A high milage vs compromised low milage, but also seen boost. Either one should be gone through.

pics of shiny metal things!
 
When I grenaded my first 3L (rod through block) I re-used the heads. I pulled them off and had them gone through by Kinger at the time (they were P&P heads done by him). I want to say it was only like $200 or so, well worth the reassurance that all is well in my mind. You will spend almost that much just for all new gaskets/bolts. I had a few bent valves so I had no choice but to have mine torn down and looked at, but I would do it again if anything ever happens with this shortblock.

If it were my car I'd pickup a new OEM pump too.
 
IIRC Mike looked into the oil pump and came to the conclusion that the stock pump is good for plenty of HP. I believe he talked with some high HP noble owners running stock oil pumps. Sure he'll chime in.

In fact I think I have a low mile oil pump from Devins forged 3L cougar engine I parted out if your interested.
Pm'ing u now...
 
Wow guyz. Thanks for all the contribution. Much appreciated.

generally its not high HP builds that you have problems with the oil pump (unless it flat out cant supply enough flow to keep enough oil on the bearings). there are 3S guys running way more power than any Contour and they are still on the stock oil pump (different pump but same design). upgraded pumps (or billet internals) are typically only needed on really high RPM applications.

as far as reusing the heads, they can be reused but they need to be completely disassembled and thoroughly cleaned by a machine shop. any little shaving that could have made its way up to the heads (including rod bearing material) is able to make its way back down to the pan and through the system again which could lead to another failure. I would also recommend replacing the HLAs as they just cant really be cleaned very well and they can trap tiny particles of bearings and then release them later. the turbo is another piece that should be rebuilt and cleaned. basically anything that has oil flowing through it needs to either be replaced or very thoroughly cleaned (oil cooler as well)
Thx striker. I'll have the machine shop clean the low mileage heads too. As for the turbo, I will def clean it. And I know ur advice on rebuilding it is a preemptive one. But I doubt the particles got that far up the system. Plus I dunno how to rebuild one.
no pics???
Pics of what joe? The new parts or the carnage? Either way, i'll post some when I get a chance. The block is still at the machine shop.

I agree, I know this isn't a no money spared build but I also suggest taking a little time and money to make sure you aren't shooting yourself in the foot. With something as important and relatively cheap as an oil pump it is best to get new. I did too remember in Mikes thread that it was found that the stock one was sufficient. Worth the read for your own sanity. As for the heads, i think your riding the fence. A high milage vs compromised low milage, but also seen boost. Either one should be gone through.

pics of shiny metal things!
True. Thx e. I'll take them to the shop to get them cleaned as well.

When I grenaded my first 3L (rod through block) I re-used the heads. I pulled them off and had them gone through by Kinger at the time (they were P&P heads done by him). I want to say it was only like $200 or so, well worth the reassurance that all is well in my mind. You will spend almost that much just for all new gaskets/bolts. I had a few bent valves so I had no choice but to have mine torn down and looked at, but I would do it again if anything ever happens with this shortblock.

If it were my car I'd pickup a new OEM pump too.
I appreciate the info. I'll grab a low mileage one somewhere.
 
you would be amazed at how far and how fast tiny bearing particles can spread through an engine. I would find a local diesel shop that can rebuild turbos and have them inspect/clean/rebuild it. It shouldnt be very much (maybe $100-150 if they have to use a rebuild kit) and its piece of mind that it wont spread metal particles through the new engine. forgetting to clean anything that had oil flowing through it after a bearing has spun (or other catastrophic failure) has killed more 3S 6G72 engines in less than 1000 miles than anything else. I would hate to see the same thing happen here as I know how much money can be spent on rebuilds.
 
I'm in almost the same situation as you except without the turbo. I went with K1 rods and Ross pistons. First time inside the short block.

I opened up my oil pump and it was toast - shut the engine down almost immediately but the damage was done. 2 valves were bent by the metal flying around in the cylinders too - 1 in the cylinder where it let go and one intake valve in the adjacent cylinder. Those bits just go all over the place -I still can't believe that pieces blew back through the intake valves, but there were fragments on top of the secondary butterflys.

My heads have been fully disassembled and I am in the process of putting them back together.
Let me know if you want to compare notes at any point - but it sounds like you've caught up to my 2 year build and are about to get ahead of me.
 
you would be amazed at how far and how fast tiny bearing particles can spread through an engine. I would find a local diesel shop that can rebuild turbos and have them inspect/clean/rebuild it. It shouldnt be very much (maybe $100-150 if they have to use a rebuild kit) and its piece of mind that it wont spread metal particles through the new engine. forgetting to clean anything that had oil flowing through it after a bearing has spun (or other catastrophic failure) has killed more 3S 6G72 engines in less than 1000 miles than anything else. I would hate to see the same thing happen here as I know how much money can be spent on rebuilds.
I gotcha. Thanks. I guess i'll be hunting for a shop that rebuilds turbos.

I'm in almost the same situation as you except without the turbo. I went with K1 rods and Ross pistons. First time inside the short block.

I opened up my oil pump and it was toast - shut the engine down almost immediately but the damage was done. 2 valves were bent by the metal flying around in the cylinders too - 1 in the cylinder where it let go and one intake valve in the adjacent cylinder. Those bits just go all over the place -I still can't believe that pieces blew back through the intake valves, but there were fragments on top of the secondary butterflys.

My heads have been fully disassembled and I am in the process of putting them back together.
Let me know if you want to compare notes at any point - but it sounds like you've caught up to my 2 year build and are about to get ahead of me.
Thx for the info. I'll def letchu know. Yeah, once I decided I'd be rebuilding, I gotta get it done. The longer it takes, the higher the odds i'll forget sumthn
 
I was able to make out time to snap a few pix.
The pistons, rods, main n rod bearings, & the head bolts.
DSC_0154_zpse7710472.jpg


Looks pretty good I think. Feels well built too.
DSC_0155_zps6d0eedcf.jpg


DSC_0156_zps6242d5ff.jpg


DSC_0157_zps4f47bcfa.jpg


And this is what a 150k piston looks like. Absolutely horrible.
DSC_0159_zps415375ec.jpg
 
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