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wheel bearing problems

A

aboythatskates

Hard-core CEG'er
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
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Location
spokane wa
wel i had a wheel bearing go out on me probably 5k miles ago. maybe 10k. and i tryied to press it out and put a new one in. but it actually welded itself into the knuckle and it gotso hot even the tie rod end got welded in. so i had a completly shot knuckle, tie rod end and hub.

i replaced it with a junkyard one, the whole thing. hub, beaing and knuckle all were from the same kuckle i picked up. and now that wheel bearing is out! it has alot more play then my old one. about a centimeter of play at 12 and 6 o'clock.

so i need to figure out what can cause this? can over or undertightening do it? because i remember tightening that badboy up pretty hard.

so now im thinking this one also welded itself, and im gonna have to get another whole assembly. or if it didnt, should i rink and reusing my knuckle and hub?



how can i prevent this from happening again?
 
Replace the hub and wheel bearing. The hub slightly changes dimension from being pressed in and out of a bearing, tightened to ~250 ft. lbs by the axle nut and other stresses. Word of advice if you have a press, put the bearing in your oven at a very low temperature for a while and put a new hub in the freezer. As quickly as you can, gently press the hub into the bearing first, then the whole assembly into the knuckle. Use emery cloth to clean the inside of the knuckle and make the surface more uniform. I have done about 5 wheel bearings and this method was the best go-around for me. Took about 45 minutes.

Furthermore, as soon as you hear that grinding sound or a hint of a failing bearing, replace it! Don't risk the "welding" again!
 
i never had any grinding or anything! it was just loose. just like this one. and like i said i never even took my junkyard knuckle apart. i just installed it.

so i guess (if its not welded yet) im going to buy a new hub and bearing.
btw i read everywhere that its 210 ft pounds of torque not 250...

im actually doing a torsen install myself. and replacing everything while in there. so im gonna do this then. including new axles, and hopfunny this will solve everything
 
Yeah ~250 was a guess. I always check the spec before I torque it but I can never fully remember. I think from NM to ft./lbs its closer to 214.

Im surprised no noise could be heard, especially with that much movement! Make sure your lower ball joint isn't shot.. 12-6 movement on our cars can suggest that too.

My last bearing didn't make noise but it had a "hitch." I would feel what felt like an flat spot in a tire while driving. Thought it was the axle, no change. Hoped it wasn't the diff carrier bearings. Replaced the hub and bearing and the problem went away
 
well im sure 210 is better then guessing like i did last time. the only thing i can feel is if im accelerating hard on a left turn, and when i left off the thottle the car will like wabble left and right smoothly kinda like torque steer. and then feel normal again
i have all new lcas, endlinks, and tie rod ends. but i have to get new end links because the rubber boot doesnt cover the joint all the way so they got shot. grrr.
and i hope the same didnt happen to my lca, but i didnt see any movement from it. 3 and 9 o'clock theres very limited movement, almost seems normal
 
You might want to reverse that

You might want to reverse that

greasemonkey1489 said:
Replace the hub and wheel bearing. The hub slightly changes dimension from being pressed in and out of a bearing, tightened to ~250 ft. lbs by the axle nut and other stresses. Word of advice if you have a press, put the bearing in your oven at a very low temperature for a while and put a new hub in the freezer. As quickly as you can, gently press the hub into the bearing first, then the whole assembly into the knuckle.
Click to expand...

You need to HEAT the hub and freeze the bearings, this way you expand the hub (the hole for the bearing) and you make the bearing slightly smaller making for a very easy installation. If you heat the bearings (expand) and freeze the hub (shrink) you just make it more difficult to press in.

If the bearings are properly installed the 250 ft lbs should have little to no effect on the preload as the proper preload should be set by the bearing set and proper installation. If one expects the preload to be set by the 250 ft lbs then the bearing will be brinelled (dented) before the wheel spins even once.
 
andreslobo said:
You need to HEAT the hub and freeze the bearings, this way you expand the hub (the hole for the bearing) and you make the bearing slightly smaller making for a very easy installation. If you heat the bearings (expand) and freeze the hub (shrink) you just make it more difficult to press in.

If the bearings are properly installed the 250 ft lbs should have little to no effect on the preload as the proper preload should be set by the bearing set and proper installation. If one expects the preload to be set by the 250 ft lbs then the bearing will be brinelled (dented) before the wheel spins even once.
Click to expand...

No? There's nothing wrong with what I said. I press the hub (cold) into the bearing (warm) first and then the whole unit into the knuckle.. That way the hub will press into the inner-races easier. Do it using your method and you will decrease the dimension of the fit of the inner race and hub.. Maybe rethink what you said

AGAIN, 250 ft lbs was not accurate, just "off the top of my head." Consult a tech service manual, the torque for the axle nut is just over 200 ft. lbs. With a tapered bearing, makes sense. Why they have this high of a torque with a double ball bearing is beyond me. My hunch is just to slam the inner races together and because of the thread pitch of the end of the axle.
 
Remember me skater? Washer salesman.

Yeah, that one.............

The bearing tears up if overtorqued or undertorqued, especially under. The clearances of bearings inside are based on the torque, 180-210 ft.lbs. will work all day long. Make sure it pulls up to torque with no give or the nut is scrap and you need another. Don't think you can guess it, you see the result. Buying junkyard bearings is for the birds too. I buy lots of yard parts but bearings will never be among them.

The torque is super high to guarantee the integrity of the axle/bearing/hub assembly as a solid one piece unit once together. If not torqued enough the axle end begins to wobble in the bearing play to destroy the balls and races. The balls start loading on only a small part of the race and you can kiss that part goodbye.

Andreslobo, you were thinking of knuckle not hub, greasemonkey is correct. However he is incorrect in thinking one could ever press the parts in time, the temperatures will equalize in maybe 15-30 seconds to seize the parts up. I've done it by knocking parts together with a hammer, you'll get maybe 3 times to whack before the parts lock up. It works fine, I've never damaged one doing that but I used to install bearings by the hundreds for living. Of course the trick is striking bearing without popping out the center on either side, that makes the bearing junk, I can do it right all day long.

Heat (250 degrees) knuckle, freeze bearing for at least an hour to put bearing in knuckle.

Heat bearing but freeze hub to install hub. Problematic as you can damage seals doing that, I simply knock hub in, usually pretty easy, or make up a puller from all-thread, I have several to do this type work. I do hub last, bearing/knuckle together first. You do NOT want to use hub to press bearing into knuckle, pressing against hub with big force can damage inside race of bearing , the bearing must be pressed in by the OUTER RACE or bearing is potentially scrap.

Don't cheap out and get the $20 bearing, you'll regret it. I buy the more expensive ones, the last cheap one failed in 2 days, when pulled back apart it had absolutely no grease in it, running dry. Great job, China!
 
What amc49 says is true! I have learned to pull apart these so called "sealed" bearings and clean the grease out and put in better or "knowned" quality grease. I had a new bearing go bad after only a few months. When I pulled it apart it was nearly dry. I then took the new bearing apart and found very little grease in there and of poor quality. I packed it with a good moly grease and have no problems with it since.

On the torque for the hub nut. While the 220 ft lbs may be spec I don't think you will go wrong it you go higher.

I race a VW Scriocco in SCCA class Improved Touring. This is the A1 chassis VW. The same as the early Rabbits. This car has bigger CV's but the hub & bearins are the same. To keep the hubs from cracking, or I should say to keep them from cracking sooner we "Over Torque" the hub nuts! Some racers have gone as high as 300 ft lbs with out problems! The VW knuckle/bearing assembly is set up the same as the Contour just smaller so to say that you shouldn't go over the spec of 220 ft lbs or you will create problems is not true.
 
I am confused well just alittle bit

I am confused well just alittle bit

greasemonkey1489 said:
AGAIN, 250 ft lbs was not accurate, just "off the top of my head." Consult a tech service manual, the torque for the axle nut is just over 200 ft. lbs. With a tapered bearing, makes sense. Why they have this high of a torque with a double ball bearing is beyond me. My hunch is just to slam the inner races together and because of the thread pitch of the end of the axle.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I looked into the book. Yes you are right cool the hub and heat the bearings is correct. But I would assume that one would need to heat the knuckle and freeze the hub and bearing assembly for final assembly.

But you are oh so wrong suggesting that you use the torque to 'slam the inner races together' If not properly installed and you torque them to "slam" them together you will end up with dented (brinelled) bearings, the quickest way to buy another set of replacements. These are angular bearings and the preload is set at the suppliers. They fully expect the to be pressed home with the correct tools.
 
Whatever you do must be done with an eye towards not popping the center out of that bearing.

Pressing is preferred over knocking them in, sometimes I just don't have the patience. Never lost one and they last forever but someday I'm gonna burn my butt doing it. Thought I had with the only one that ever went bad since it made noise almost instantly. Part turned out to be empty of grease though.
 
andreslobo said:
Hmm, I looked into the book. Yes you are right cool the hub and heat the bearings is correct. But I would assume that one would need to heat the knuckle and freeze the hub and bearing assembly for final assembly.

But you are oh so wrong suggesting that you use the torque to 'slam the inner races together' If not properly installed and you torque them to "slam" them together you will end up with dented (brinelled) bearings, the quickest way to buy another set of replacements. These are angular bearings and the preload is set at the suppliers. They fully expect the to be pressed home with the correct tools.
Click to expand...

Slam was used loosely.. don't take it so literally.
 
amc49 said:
Remember me skater? Washer salesman.

Yeah, that one.............

The bearing tears up if overtorqued or undertorqued, especially under. The clearances of bearings inside are based on the torque, 180-210 ft.lbs. will work all day long. Make sure it pulls up to torque with no give or the nut is scrap and you need another. Don't think you can guess it, you see the result. Buying junkyard bearings is for the birds too. I buy lots of yard parts but bearings will never be among them.

The torque is super high to guarantee the integrity of the axle/bearing/hub assembly as a solid one piece unit once together. If not torqued enough the axle end begins to wobble in the bearing play to destroy the balls and races. The balls start loading on only a small part of the race and you can kiss that part goodbye.

Andreslobo, you were thinking of knuckle not hub, greasemonkey is correct. However he is incorrect in thinking one could ever press the parts in time, the temperatures will equalize in maybe 15-30 seconds to seize the parts up. I've done it by knocking parts together with a hammer, you'll get maybe 3 times to whack before the parts lock up. It works fine, I've never damaged one doing that but I used to install bearings by the hundreds for living. Of course the trick is striking bearing without popping out the center on either side, that makes the bearing junk, I can do it right all day long.

Heat (250 degrees) knuckle, freeze bearing for at least an hour to put bearing in knuckle.

Heat bearing but freeze hub to install hub. Problematic as you can damage seals doing that, I simply knock hub in, usually pretty easy, or make up a puller from all-thread, I have several to do this type work. I do hub last, bearing/knuckle together first. You do NOT want to use hub to press bearing into knuckle, pressing against hub with big force can damage inside race of bearing , the bearing must be pressed in by the OUTER RACE or bearing is potentially scrap.

Don't cheap out and get the $20 bearing, you'll regret it. I buy the more expensive ones, the last cheap one failed in 2 days, when pulled back apart it had absolutely no grease in it, running dry. Great job, China!
Click to expand...

I have a hydraulic press. It takes roughly 10 seconds to seat a cool hub in a warm bearing.
 
It takes 10 seconds more to set up to do it though. You've got to get any piloting fittings in place. Just running the ram down in and of itself ain't gonna cut it. The walk from the fridge may take 10 or more seconds too. I run when I do it.

Hub in bearing has only maybe 1/4-1/3 the force involved as bearing in knuckle. Half the time I do not bother with heat/chill on those. Simple non-grade allthread works fine to pull those together along with strategically sized washers (can't help it-I'm a washer salesman!) to shore up opposite side bearing center to keep it from popping out.

You don't even need to temperature precondition parts with a press, I pressed hundreds on printing presses by simply greasing outside of bearing and inside of other and shoving them home. Some of those bearings were 8 inches in diameter. Biggest problem was finding useable tooling to press outside race of bearing to not damage it.

Yes, skater, grease the parts. Make sure any big rust is removed too, rust has a tendency to seize the parts up.

Make sure part starts off straight, if it tilts will lock up and go no further, although sometimes they will re-pilot and set back straight after a bit. If doing it by hand the key giveaway is if the pulling force ramps up real quick, the mark of a crooked part. Damage city if you insist on forcing it crooked.

You really should put bearing in knuckle first, doing so can allow more options if trouble develops. Popping in the hub is almost an afterthought, easy. You MUST provide for something on other side of bearing center when doing hub though, if not, the hub will go fine for one half of the bearing then knock out the other side's center. People make that mistake all the time.
 
amc49 said:
It takes 10 seconds more to set up to do it though. You've got to get any piloting fittings in place. Just running the ram down in and of itself ain't gonna cut it. The walk from the fridge may take 10 or more seconds too. I run when I do it.

Hub in bearing has only maybe 1/4-1/3 the force involved as bearing in knuckle. Half the time I do not bother with heat/chill on those. Simple non-grade allthread works fine to pull those together along with strategically sized washers (can't help it-I'm a washer salesman!) to shore up opposite side bearing center to keep it from popping out.

You don't even need to temperature precondition parts with a press, I pressed hundreds on printing presses by simply greasing outside of bearing and inside of other and shoving them home. Some of those bearings were 8 inches in diameter. Biggest problem was finding useable tooling to press outside race of bearing to not damage it.

Yes, skater, grease the parts. Make sure any big rust is removed too, rust has a tendency to seize the parts up.

Make sure part starts off straight, if it tilts will lock up and go no further, although sometimes they will re-pilot and set back straight after a bit. If doing it by hand the key giveaway is if the pulling force ramps up real quick, the mark of a crooked part. Damage city if you insist on forcing it crooked.

You really should put bearing in knuckle first, doing so can allow more options if trouble develops. Popping in the hub is almost an afterthought, easy. You MUST provide for something on other side of bearing center when doing hub though, if not, the hub will go fine for one half of the bearing then knock out the other side's center. People make that mistake all the time.
Click to expand...

Did the temperature thing for fun. In terms of mechanical fits and whatnot, it can work.

Like I said, it takes 10 seconds to press the hub into the bearing. No pilot tools needed, really. The old bearing works just fine. Especially when it comes apart during dis-assembly. Then another 30 seconds to press it into the hub. I've replaced wheel bearings in 35 minutes. If you don't believe me, that's your prerogative.

The heat/chill was a matter of set the new hub in the freezer, run to the parts store to pick up a bearing, come back, put it all back together. No real science involved.. and no washers.

I press the hub in first so I can SEE it seat on the inner race. 2mm makes a difference with the caliper bracket and rotor if the hub is not fully in the bearing or the bearing not fully seated in the knuckle.
 
The torque on axle nut pulls center hub in pretty much guaranteed if it's out a bit, you'd know if it will simply by how hard it was to put hub in (but not on a power hydro press because you are not feeling the force involved). That torque is INTENDED to make sure the axle and hub are all the way in to limits in their respective directions.
 
well i will be torquing everything down for sure this time! im gonna rent the tools from oreilly's. becaue i dont need more trouble. i dont wanna go into the trans ever again.lol (doing a lsd install and fixing everything in there while the subframe and half the front end is off)
 
I always get my significant other in the car, idling, foot on brake hard while I torque up nut to the final number.
 
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