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Question on possible 2-bolt LCA to 4-bolt LCA Subframe swap

M

mrspindlelegs

CEG'er
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
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I'm playing with the idea of replacing the 2-bolt LCA subframe with a 4-bolt LCA subframe in order to use 4-bolt LCAs. The reason for doing this is purely "the 4-bolt design is better". The current subframe has to come out for a major overhaul project so if this swap is going to be done, now is the time to do it. I have determined the following so far:

1. The steering knuckles are compatible so they do not have to be changed

2. The 4-bolt LCA replacement subframe must come from a Contour/Mystique that has a manual transmission

3. There will not be any problems with radiator and roll resistor mounting as long as I conform to Item #2.

What I haven't resolved through pretty thorough forum searching are the following issues:

1. Does it matter if the donor car engine is a Zetec vs. the Duratec?

2. Does it matter if the donor car is a rod-shift vs. cable shift set-up?

3. Is there anything else that causes incompatibility problems when searching for donor cars such as "how the steering rack bolts on", "where other accessory items get anchored to the subframe", etc.?

Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
#1 I can't answer for sure, personally, I'd stick w/ a Duratec donor, just to be safe.
#2 Shouldn't matter, especially if you are using cable shift.
#3 Is the other reason I'd stick with a duratec donor, though the likelyhood of any issues is very low.
 
Hey mrspindlelegs; i did this and it was plug and play .. knuckles were no problem.

I would add though, the 4 bolt arms are only standard rubber and can't really take the abuse, say a 3.0l turbo can dish out. If i did this again; i would consider staying 2 bolt and getting either poly bushes or trying to find a set or rose jointed arms (stangkiller iirc) ....G.
 
Like rara said I would stick the duratec one. The zetec one might have the rear mount in a different location. Im pretty sure you could pull the sub frame from a cougar and put them in a contour.
The radiator should not be an issue. If so the lower mounts are very basic and can be modded very easily. I wouldnt swap in a "rod" shift frame because of possible change in shape to allow for the shift rods

I think they should be a pretty easy swap over
 
gorman said:
Hey mrspindlelegs; i did this and it was plug and play .. knuckles were no problem.

I would add though, the 4 bolt arms are only standard rubber and can't really take the abuse, say a 3.0l turbo can dish out. If i did this again; i would consider staying 2 bolt and getting either poly bushes or trying to find a set or rose jointed arms (stangkiller iirc) ....G.
Click to expand...

My only comment is that poly bushing w/ the 2 bolt design are very bad juju. Either spherical bearing 2-bolt arms, or figure out a way to do poly on the 4 bolt arms. Or, just replace the rubber on the 4 bolt arms on a semi-regular basis. Heck, if someone wants to send me some 4-bolt amrs and stock bushings, I could always try making some poly or delrin bushings on my lathe.
 
You can't really replace the bushings on the 4 bolts arms due to the way they are pressed in...That's why people buy new arms.
 
Rara said:
My only comment is that poly bushing w/ the 2 bolt design are very bad juju. Either spherical bearing 2-bolt arms, or figure out a way to do poly on the 4 bolt arms. Or, just replace the rubber on the 4 bolt arms on a semi-regular basis. Heck, if someone wants to send me some 4-bolt amrs and stock bushings, I could always try making some poly or delrin bushings on my lathe.
Click to expand...

WOW !! if you do make some 4 bolt arms bushes, i would be down for a set of those. Being on this side of the pond, not very economical for me to send arms .. but definately will be watching with interest and would be grateful to join the queue. I was watching the Ken Block (france) video yesterday and about a minute in you see a couple of seconds of footage of the front suspension setup... it was then i realized that the rose jointed arms Stangkiller made were a real oportunity missed. ... G.
 
zorrex said:
You can't really replace the bushings on the 4 bolts arms due to the way they are pressed in...That's why people buy new arms.
Click to expand...

It can be done, especially when you are using a solid bushing material like Delrin.

gorman said:
WOW !! if you do make some 4 bolt arms bushes, i would be down for a set of those. Being on this side of the pond, not very economical for me to send arms .. but definately will be watching with interest and would be grateful to join the queue. I was watching the Ken Block (france) video yesterday and about a minute in you see a couple of seconds of footage of the front suspension setup... it was then i realized that the rose jointed arms Stangkiller made were a real oportunity missed. ... G.
Click to expand...

I'm not making any real promises, because it may be cost prohibitive, but I'd be at least willing to look into it. And fwiw, heim (or rose) jointed control arms can be really brutal on a street car. I never tried stangkillers, but having a solid joint on the 2 bolt arms in the rear location makes every rut and bump transfer right back up into the subframe, and can lead to broken things from vibration over the long term. But, on the track, they would easily be the best option available.
 
Rara said:
It can be done, especially when you are using a solid bushing material like Delrin.
Click to expand...

from the 6 or so arms i have seen, it has always been the front (larger) bush that has failed.... the rear bush always seems to be fine. Would replacing the rubber for delrin create excessive vibration ? ..G.
 
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gorman said:
from the 6 or so arms i have seen, it has always been the front (larger) bush that has failed.... the rear bush always seems to be fine. Would replacing the rubber for delrin create excessive vibration ? ..G.
Click to expand...

Any stiffer bushing material will increase transmitted vibration, so yes, Delrin will increase vibration, but not as much as a solid heim/rose/spherical bearing joint. And note my comments weren't about which point would fail first, just about where the vibration is transmitted through into the subframe. Which bushing would fail first depends on many many design factors in addition to location.

prozak1986 said:
can i be the test dummy on the delrin bushings ? im about 10mins away from westland mi
Click to expand...

Bring me some arms w/ at least decent stock bushings, and leave them for awhile so I can play with it, and be willing to at least buy the raw delrin stock (or whatever material we end up deciding to use) and I'll see what I can do.
 
Rara said:
It can be done, especially when you are using a solid bushing material like Delrin.

I'm not making any real promises, because it may be cost prohibitive, but I'd be at least willing to look into it. And fwiw, heim (or rose) jointed control arms can be really brutal on a street car. I never tried stangkillers, but having a solid joint on the 2 bolt arms in the rear location makes every rut and bump transfer right back up into the subframe, and can lead to broken things from vibration over the long term. But, on the track, they would easily be the best option available.
Click to expand...

I think what zorrex was pointing out was that the shafts of the factory 4 bolt arms have buldges and chamfers in them so they don't walk forward and aft in travel. Meaning that regardless of what material you machine bushings out of, the factory shafts wont work (see picture). Of course you can machine new shafts, but then it's out of most of the CEG community price range.

A20arm20pin20comparo_.jpg


Not picking on you, just trying to clarify. :cool:

Redlineracer12 has tubular/heimed front control arms. No harshness in his ride...it rides real nice. The rubber coned hat bearing acts as one big bushing and dampens the ride alot. Would be a different story with hard mounted coilovers. ;)
 
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Oh, I know what they look like, and the difficulties associated with it, that's why I need time to play with them, and why I said it may end up being cost prohibitive to do, but there is ALWAYS something that can be done :D I do have the equipment to machine new shafts too if necessary anyway.
 
Man I wish you were closer I have a 4 bolt LCA subframe from an 01 v6 manual Cougar in fabulous shape with no rust just taking space.
 
Rara said:
Bring me some arms w/ at least decent stock bushings, and leave them for awhile so I can play with it, and be willing to at least buy the raw delrin stock (or whatever material we end up deciding to use) and I'll see what I can do.
Click to expand...

let me try and locate a pair of 4bolts and ill get back to you , how much do you think this will end up costing ( materials/labor etc. ) ?
 
Honestly, I have no idea at this point. I'll have to start by measuring up everything and figuring out what sort of assembly scheme we'll have to go with to make it work. Heck, worst case we can burn out the stock rubber and mold some polyurethane directly in to replace it. You might want to check w/ svttour and see if he has arms he'll sell you. I'm sure you could talk him into shipping directly to me too if you wanted.

Hmm, I just had a heck of an idea for the 2-bolt arms too. If someone wants to send/bring me a set of 2-bolt arms too, I can give that one a try too.

Oh, the joys of being a troll, you have to ask other people for parts, lol.
 
CrazyTalkSVT said:
A20arm20pin20comparo_.jpg
Click to expand...

i've never seen this before... but now i have, i'm happy that the shaft wouldn't slide out of a poly bush. The question i do have is, how do you ensure the poly bonds to the arm. I think that it would have to either be pressed in with the shaft in the pre-made bush or the poly could be poured in ... and then caps pressed over the ends to seal it inside the arm. ... thoughts ... G.
 
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