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Oil Issue options: Accusump, Clevite, New pan

Nick A.

CEG'er
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
80
Location
Beaverton, OR
I have searched a lot on this issue and I know the forum is limited right now with the no access to old threads, but I'd like to discuss the oiling issue and options to aleviate the concern.

4 yrs ago I spun a rod bearing in my '99 Cougar during a high RPM right hand turn. That led me to doing a 3.0L swap and everything along with that which was fun no doubt. My situation is different now and I just picked up a CSVT w/123K on it and I'm trying to maximize reliability as it will be my DD and engine failure would suck. So, just to be clear, PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO TALK ME INTO DROPING IN A 3.0L TO SOLVE THE OILING ISSUE IN THE 2.5L. I have to talk myself out of this everyday I own the car :drool:

So, 3 options. Obviously all 3 would be the best but I am trying to rank them in order of "most improvement for the $$$" Maybe 1&2, 1&3, 2&3???

Option 1: Upgrade to '04+ Escape oil pan and pickup tube

pros- cheapest, easiest, better baffling to keep oil from sloshing around
cons- doesn't solve the "lack" of oil cause by the lask of sufficient oil returns in head

Option 2: replace stock rod bearings with Clevite 77 tri metals

pros- much stronger than stock, may withstand a few seconds of starvation?, should be able to replace these under the car by droping the oil pan
cons- doesn't solve the "lack" of oil cause by the lask of sufficient oil returns in head, labor intensive

Option 3: install Accusump (or equivalent) oil accumulator system with electronic control valve

pros- helps engine maintain oil pressure especially during start up and cornering
cons- expensive, labor intensive, not a guaranteed fix, is 1 qt enough? What's the best way to plumb it? Into the main galley or oil pan?

So, please comment...


Thanks!
Nick
 
shouldn't have to do any of that. run 6 to 6.5 qts of oil and make sure to watch the level. there are a few duratecs with over 200k and had nothing extra done.

I am one to believe the oil drain back issue is an myth. I have never once seen my oil pressure guage drop while taking a right hand turn at high rpm.

Do not just replace the bearings. you need to dissassemble the block and measure everything and have it machined as needed.

Accusump is your call. don't know of anyone that has one on s dd car.
 
shouldn't have to do any of that. run 6 to 6.5 qts of oil and make sure to watch the level. there are a few duratecs with over 200k and had nothing extra done.

I am one to believe the oil drain back issue is an myth. I have never once seen my oil pressure guage drop while taking a right hand turn at high rpm.

Do not just replace the bearings. you need to dissassemble the block and measure everything and have it machined as needed.

Accusump is your call. don't know of anyone that has one on s dd car.

Why would you have to machine anything to replace the rod bearings???

When I disassembled the 3.0L to build for my swap, I just replaced the bearings with Clevites no problem. Just don't mix up the rod caps :)
 
They sell slightly over-sized bearings too, would that be better?


you have to measure everything to know what size bearing you need .... bottom line, bearings shouldn't just be swapped.

you need the oversized bearings when the crank and rods need to be machined.
 
Ok.

Now I have been pondering on this for a while now and I just don't see how the oil pressure can drop in our engine? If you picture it as a closed system, how would the pressure drop just because there is not sufficient oil drain-back to the pan? Is the pressure different in the heads vs. the pan?

Now, I can see the oil sloshing to one side around a turn because of poor baffling, but the new oil pan and running 6 qts should take car of that?
 
You should be running 6+ quarts to begin with regardless of oil pan. That being said I could stand to swap to the revised pan as well since my oil drain threads are gone and my patch job hasnt quite sealed up yet.
 
From what I have read, there is also a drainback issue with the 2.5L heads that also contributes to the oil starvation failure of these engines.
 
From what I have read, there is also a drainback issue with the 2.5L heads that also contributes to the oil starvation failure of these engines.


if there was a drain back issue then there wouldn't be enough oil in the pan for the oil pump to pick up. this means the oil pressure will drop. this means the main bearing would go first, not the rod bearings. I have never seen my oil pressure drop when taking high rpm right hand turns.

but then again the late model cougars have a 3rd oil drain. that and more SVT engine fail early from rod bearing failure then non-svgts it seems.
 
oil protection is the biggest concern and it will be directly related to how the car was taken care of. the rods on these cars are powderedmetal forged rods and they form flat spots on the very top of the rod bearing surface causing a little spot where oil can't make it through good enough and will cause rod bearings to spin. people are reaaaaly failing to understand that the crank doesnt need to be fully submerged in oil. there are oil galleys that have pressurized oil pushing into the bearing mating surfaces at all times. you would have to literally take a right hand turn in circles time after time until you actually starved the oil pump of oil and if this actually did occur, you would be starving the cams and timing gear too, and more would happen than just a rod bearing going out. if you want to fully fix the problem, get aftermarket forged rods.


that's my 2 cents. 99% of this site is going to try to flame me on this theory and i'm not going to listen to any of it. so save ur breath haters! :D
 
oil protection is the biggest concern and it will be directly related to how the car was taken care of. the rods on these cars are powderedmetal forged rods and they form flat spots on the very top of the rod bearing surface causing a little spot where oil can't make it through good enough and will cause rod bearings to spin. people are reaaaaly failing to understand that the crank doesnt need to be fully submerged in oil. there are oil galleys that have pressurized oil pushing into the bearing mating surfaces at all times. you would have to literally take a right hand turn in circles time after time until you actually starved the oil pump of oil and if this actually did occur, you would be starving the cams and timing gear too, and more would happen than just a rod bearing going out. if you want to fully fix the problem, get aftermarket forged rods.


that's my 2 cents. 99% of this site is going to try to flame me on this theory and i'm not going to listen to any of it. so save ur breath haters! :D

This is exactly what I was thinking, I mean the squirters are providing oil all of the time. This is why I asked if upgrading to Clevite bearings could help the situation???

Thanks,
Nick
 
In theory that would help toughen up the bearings so they would resist failure better than the stock bearings.
 
not possitive but the clevite bearing might be softer then the stock bearings because of the materials used.
 
Yep. Clevite somewhat overrated. Too soft, wear way too quick since softer to save the crank, made that way on purpose. Many drag racers have had much trouble with them, went back to harder stiffer pure babbit type and motored on longer after the change. A bike I know much about, Honda DOHC circa '79-'83 developed much more trouble after Honda quit supplying the standard babbit and went to 'Kelmut 77', or Euro branded Clevite. The CB900F blew up plenty of stock motors until rod way strengthened in the CB1100F, but rod bearing spinning continued. Bearing spins then rod snaps in half from bearing lockup. Big block Mopar draggers had hell with same until many ditched Clevite and went to other, those guys reported much longer lasting engines. Better rod will help but only if lighter, if heavier just makes the bearing spin faster as the rod big end eggshapes from high rpm and more weight. The ends warp in and chisel oil off and spin the bearing. As an aside, rod bearings on most all engines will spin first as they are at oil pathway end, they suffer first. Rod goes through more distortion than main does. The few mains I have seen spun were always due to something else, but I have seen more rods spun than can count. They will always do it first because hardest loaded part in engine. Have seen many spun with no damage at all to any other part in motor other than corollary. Oil pressure sets up the oil wedge that separates parts, once rpm and rod centrifugal weight are enough to overcome the pressure of that wedge, that's all she wrote. Used to have a friend with '63 Chevy II with fake 375 hp. 327, he used the lesser non-'pink' rod. Every time he went over about 6800 rpm the motor would spin a rod bearing. We would shut it down quick and change the bearing, all it had done was cleanly shear the locating tang off, no journal damage. Drive it till did it again, musta done it 3-4 times, motor never did blow up.

'If you picture it as a closed system, how would the pressure drop just because there is not sufficient oil drain-back to the pan? Is the pressure different in the heads vs. the pan?'

We're kidding here, right? If the oil stacks up in top end, pump runs out, sucks air, kablooey.........

If oil supply is right, a typical V-8 engine can exist at race rpm on only 1/2 quart of oil. That witnessed on dry sump systems. But everything's gotta be RIGHT.

I have changed plenty of bearings in high rpm motors without doing anything other than changing the part, but everything must be in serviceable condition.
 
I think the Oil pressure drop on hard right handers is a falicy.
This one has been kicking around for years, and for a while had me pretty paranoid.
I have a mechanical Oil pressure gauge, and have watched it very closely (as close as you can while driving on the track) and around turns 4/5 at Portland, which is really one mothering long right hander, I have NEVER seen the Oil pressure drop. Same goes for same goes for turn 11 which is a hard right hander (basically a harpin).
You should also never need to put more oil in than what Ford recommends, although I'm not sure a little bit more would hurt anything.

Mikey
 
I have searched a lot on this issue and I know the forum is limited right now with the no access to old threads, but I'd like to discuss the oiling issue and options to aleviate the concern.


The archive threads are available to search. You just have to follow the link from the home page... Archive Link
 
if there was a drain back issue then there wouldn't be enough oil in the pan for the oil pump to pick up. this means the oil pressure will drop. this means the main bearing would go first, not the rod bearings. I have never seen my oil pressure drop when taking high rpm right hand turns.

but then again the late model cougars have a 3rd oil drain. that and more SVT engine fail early from rod bearing failure then non-svgts it seems.

I think the main reason why non-SVT engines seem to last longer is due to the fact the engines aren't run as hard. I'm sure there are people out there that rev them to the moon everytime they drive them, but on average, most don't. That being said, when you hold an engine hard at high rpm, say 6000, for a constant amount of time you can get oil starvation due to the amount of oil reaching the connecting rod bearings not being enough to maintain the oil film because more is being pushed out then being pumped in resulting in metal to metal contact. I'm no expert on the Duratec though, but I'm sure if everyone drove their car like a granny the engines would last longer, but that's a no brainer.
 
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