striker2
Official CEG Vendor
nope, boost is boost no matter how you make it.
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Good News - Pre98 Main Caps are friggin HUGE!!!
- Thread starter ButtonPuncher
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TourDeForce
Hard-core CEG'er
The only problems I see with higher boost psi are:
1. potentially high intake charge temps, especially in the type of SC you'll be using, but an very efficient intercooler should take care of that for the most part.
2. Leak back or surge with a roots type blower. Still at 30 psi, it should be manageable.
I think with that type of blower, I'd be more inclined to run higher compression & lower boost to keep intake temps more easily managed. I'd have to do more research on the production of higher boost on a roots blower.
Boost is boost in how it affects engine performance, but the manner in which you produce that boost may require different approaches or additional precautions. A roots blower produces more heat & an intercooler of some kind is almost required in any application except for relatively low boost levels. A twin screw produces much less heat by comparison, but it's a more expensive unit.
1. potentially high intake charge temps, especially in the type of SC you'll be using, but an very efficient intercooler should take care of that for the most part.
2. Leak back or surge with a roots type blower. Still at 30 psi, it should be manageable.
I think with that type of blower, I'd be more inclined to run higher compression & lower boost to keep intake temps more easily managed. I'd have to do more research on the production of higher boost on a roots blower.
Boost is boost in how it affects engine performance, but the manner in which you produce that boost may require different approaches or additional precautions. A roots blower produces more heat & an intercooler of some kind is almost required in any application except for relatively low boost levels. A twin screw produces much less heat by comparison, but it's a more expensive unit.
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
yes but he was talking about having to run a different static compression simply cause your using a supercharger instead of a turbo.
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
Actually I'm talking about twin-charging.
A turbo 4 cylinder pushing 30psi is a laggy, peaky pain in the butt. A 30psi roots blower doesn't exist. Like TourDeForce said, a roots blower becomes a real problem above 15-20psi.
I want the best of both worlds. A turbo and a supercharger. :shocked:
Please hear me out. I'm not crazy, I swear.
The supercharger will be set to 8psi. That will make my 2L Zetec behave like a heavy breathing 3L. Now I just go strap on a turbo meant for a 3L. I feed the output of the turbo into a water-air intercooler. The ouput goes to the input of the supercharger. Supercharger output goes through another water-air intercooler. That output goes to the engine. With the turbo only set to 7.5psi, and the supercharger set to 7.5psi, the PR's multiply for a whopping 18psi. (accounting for intercooler losses)
With the Turbo set to 15psi and the JRSC still at 8psi, the total output jumps to 30psi. :shocked:
Because the supercharger is running well within it's normal rpm range the parasitic loss will be kept to the 20HP area. The supercharger will also help the turbo spool faster. I was reading about a Cobalt/Ion guy that had 14psi of boost by 3000rpms. Talk about torque! :drool: :drool:
I decided upon this plan when I was researching the cost of nitrous. Because of the JRSC's weird intake layout, running a single nossle shot of nitrous wouldn't work well. I needed a NOSzle based system. Just the base package is $1000. Once you add on the warmer, purge, remote opener, gauge, etc, etc... You can easily get into the $1500-2000 range. For that money I can buy a journal bearing T3/T4 62-1 turbo, header, wastegate, and downpipe.
I also won't have the cost of re-filling a bottle all the time. When I want more power, I just flip a switch on the boost controller.
I can also just prop the wastegate open during normal daily driving for a measly 8psi of boost. Jeez, that's only like 200-210WHP.
BTW, I'm just shooting to get the intercooled JRSC on this year. The twin-charging will happen over the winter.
BP
A turbo 4 cylinder pushing 30psi is a laggy, peaky pain in the butt. A 30psi roots blower doesn't exist. Like TourDeForce said, a roots blower becomes a real problem above 15-20psi.
I want the best of both worlds. A turbo and a supercharger. :shocked:
Please hear me out. I'm not crazy, I swear.
The supercharger will be set to 8psi. That will make my 2L Zetec behave like a heavy breathing 3L. Now I just go strap on a turbo meant for a 3L. I feed the output of the turbo into a water-air intercooler. The ouput goes to the input of the supercharger. Supercharger output goes through another water-air intercooler. That output goes to the engine. With the turbo only set to 7.5psi, and the supercharger set to 7.5psi, the PR's multiply for a whopping 18psi. (accounting for intercooler losses)
With the Turbo set to 15psi and the JRSC still at 8psi, the total output jumps to 30psi. :shocked:
Because the supercharger is running well within it's normal rpm range the parasitic loss will be kept to the 20HP area. The supercharger will also help the turbo spool faster. I was reading about a Cobalt/Ion guy that had 14psi of boost by 3000rpms. Talk about torque! :drool: :drool:
I decided upon this plan when I was researching the cost of nitrous. Because of the JRSC's weird intake layout, running a single nossle shot of nitrous wouldn't work well. I needed a NOSzle based system. Just the base package is $1000. Once you add on the warmer, purge, remote opener, gauge, etc, etc... You can easily get into the $1500-2000 range. For that money I can buy a journal bearing T3/T4 62-1 turbo, header, wastegate, and downpipe.
I also won't have the cost of re-filling a bottle all the time. When I want more power, I just flip a switch on the boost controller.
I can also just prop the wastegate open during normal daily driving for a measly 8psi of boost. Jeez, that's only like 200-210WHP.
BTW, I'm just shooting to get the intercooled JRSC on this year. The twin-charging will happen over the winter.
BP
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Wow! That sounds like it could be a pretty sweet setup. Would that amount of airflow take you way out of the range efficiency for the supercharger? Are there compressor maps available for those superchargers?
There was someone on focaljet who had a twincharged setup, but the setup isn't together anymore. I forget why he abandoned it. Maybe that says something though.
Link: http://forums.focaljet.com/forced-i...svt-3-29-05-w-pics.html?highlight=twincharged
There was someone on focaljet who had a twincharged setup, but the setup isn't together anymore. I forget why he abandoned it. Maybe that says something though.
Link: http://forums.focaljet.com/forced-i...svt-3-29-05-w-pics.html?highlight=twincharged
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ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
That's the interesting about a fixed-displacement supercharger. It doesn't really have an efficiency map. It was a power draw vs rpm/boost chart.
A fixed-displacement supercharger takes one unit of air and moves it in one revolution. In my case, it's 1L of air. If I spin it twice as fast as my engine speed, it will move twice as much air as my engine needs. Therefore, because my engine is a restriction, the supercharger builds 14.7psi of boost.
The really interesting thing is that it moves a given volume of air per revolution. It doesn't care if that 1L of air is 1psi or 30psi. It just moves it from one side of the supercharger to the other. The supercharger can't become a restriction. That's where others have gotten stumped.
From all of the reading that I've done, others try goofy crap with clutches on the supercharger. They don't get it. A fixed-displacement supercharger will move whatever air that you feed it. They try to make it too complex. That's why all others have failed/abandoned their projects so far. (At least as far as I can find.)
Just check out the twin-charged Mini Cooper kit....
http://www.altaminiperformance.com/products/show/22/Twurbo-Kit
It works exactly how I want mine to. It's just that simple.
Also, the advantages are HUGE!!!! The supercharger helps the turbo spool. The boost multiplies for incredible low-end boost/torque. Both the turbo and super don't have to do much work. They share the load.
Yes, it drives the cost of the FI system way up, but I was going to buy a nitrous system anyway. I'd need a 200 shot to equal the power potential of the 62-1 turbo. :shocked:
BP
A fixed-displacement supercharger takes one unit of air and moves it in one revolution. In my case, it's 1L of air. If I spin it twice as fast as my engine speed, it will move twice as much air as my engine needs. Therefore, because my engine is a restriction, the supercharger builds 14.7psi of boost.
The really interesting thing is that it moves a given volume of air per revolution. It doesn't care if that 1L of air is 1psi or 30psi. It just moves it from one side of the supercharger to the other. The supercharger can't become a restriction. That's where others have gotten stumped.
From all of the reading that I've done, others try goofy crap with clutches on the supercharger. They don't get it. A fixed-displacement supercharger will move whatever air that you feed it. They try to make it too complex. That's why all others have failed/abandoned their projects so far. (At least as far as I can find.)
Just check out the twin-charged Mini Cooper kit....
http://www.altaminiperformance.com/products/show/22/Twurbo-Kit
It works exactly how I want mine to. It's just that simple.
Also, the advantages are HUGE!!!! The supercharger helps the turbo spool. The boost multiplies for incredible low-end boost/torque. Both the turbo and super don't have to do much work. They share the load.
Yes, it drives the cost of the FI system way up, but I was going to buy a nitrous system anyway. I'd need a 200 shot to equal the power potential of the 62-1 turbo. :shocked:
BP
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jamesmason
CEG'er
If you'd really want to raise the compression ratio then I'd just plain the head .005 and the block .003 this raised my c/r to 10.9:1 and as soon as I get the MSD and plugs I'll be running full 108 if I want to or still have the option of running premium.
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
I definitely DO NOT want to raise my CR. FI and a high CR don't mix. I want to drop it to 8:1 or 8.5:1
Raising your compression will only help if you want to build a high power NA motor.
BP
Raising your compression will only help if you want to build a high power NA motor.
BP
jamesmason
CEG'er
That's what I've been going for with my car and I mentioned it for those that were talking about NA setups. But with a custom build forged head from Pro Machine and special order titanium sleeves from the same you can run mid to high (10):1 setup at 20psi and pull some serious numbers. I know some guys in Utah (civic club) that run these setups and pull 350 to 360 on the tarmac (dyno'd). these setups range from 4k to 6k depending on the work requested. this isn't bad coming from a 96 to 00 D16Z6 I4 1.6L engine. That is a civic though that has a plethora of aftermarket parts available for this type of upgrade.
ohsigmachi
CEG'er
Did you ever check to see if the ARP bolts fit Pre-98 block/Main Caps? I went with the CGI block and didn't bother to look at compatibility...
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
My problem is that ARP doesn't list the bolt specs anywhere. I tried looking through the web by searching by part number but haven't come up with anything. I kinda doubt that ARP makes them 1" longer than they need to be, which is what I need.
In the ARP catalog, they do say that you can have some custom made. I'm not sure If I want to know how much that cost$. :help:
BP
In the ARP catalog, they do say that you can have some custom made. I'm not sure If I want to know how much that cost$. :help:
BP
warmonger
Hard-core CEG'er
Actually I'm talking about twin-charging.
A turbo 4 cylinder pushing 30psi is a laggy, peaky pain in the butt. A 30psi roots blower doesn't exist. Like TourDeForce said, a roots blower becomes a real problem above 15-20psi.
I want the best of both worlds. A turbo and a supercharger. :shocked:
Please hear me out. I'm not crazy, I swear.
The supercharger will be set to 8psi. That will make my 2L Zetec behave like a heavy breathing 3L. Now I just go strap on a turbo meant for a 3L. I feed the output of the turbo into a water-air intercooler. The ouput goes to the input of the supercharger. Supercharger output goes through another water-air intercooler. That output goes to the engine. With the turbo only set to 7.5psi, and the supercharger set to 7.5psi, the PR's multiply for a whopping 18psi. (accounting for intercooler losses)
With the Turbo set to 15psi and the JRSC still at 8psi, the total output jumps to 30psi. :shocked:
Because the supercharger is running well within it's normal rpm range the parasitic loss will be kept to the 20HP area. The supercharger will also help the turbo spool faster. I was reading about a Cobalt/Ion guy that had 14psi of boost by 3000rpms. Talk about torque! :drool: :drool:
I decided upon this plan when I was researching the cost of nitrous. Because of the JRSC's weird intake layout, running a single nossle shot of nitrous wouldn't work well. I needed a NOSzle based system. Just the base package is $1000. Once you add on the warmer, purge, remote opener, gauge, etc, etc... You can easily get into the $1500-2000 range. For that money I can buy a journal bearing T3/T4 62-1 turbo, header, wastegate, and downpipe.
I also won't have the cost of re-filling a bottle all the time. When I want more power, I just flip a switch on the boost controller.
I can also just prop the wastegate open during normal daily driving for a measly 8psi of boost. Jeez, that's only like 200-210WHP.
BTW, I'm just shooting to get the intercooled JRSC on this year. The twin-charging will happen over the winter.
BP
Just use a 50shot of nitrous to spool the main turbo. Save all that cash for an expensive roots type blower and put $1000 into a nice nitrous kit with progressive controller so you can decrease the nitrous as the Revs climb and the turbo starts to spool.
You put together a nice turbo kit with a bigass turbo and then run it and see where it actually starts to make boost. THen you add the nitrous and start feeding it in to give you decent take-off power and cut it off when you are a bit below the turbo spool point.
With luck you will not use the after you are rolling fast because when you shift you will still have the turbo in the powerband.
You'd save money plus not lose all that parasitic loss of turning the supercharger even after you have reached the point where the turbo has taken over.
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
except that he already has the JRSC supercharger and a T3 super 60
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
True, and the JRSC is getting modified for the intercooler (hopefully this week). I will be selling the T3 super 60 for a T3/T4 62-1. I need enough flow to feed a "3L" Zetec.
But the parasitic loss is minimal vs the power gains. I'm running the JRSC pretty slow. At 10,500 rpm, it only draws 18-20HP.
The problem with running a huge turbo on a Zetec, even with nitrous to help, is cost. I'd need an expensive ball-bearing turbo and I'd have to run the nitrous all the time just to spool it.
That's my other point. The turbo never "takes over" in the twin-charging setup. They always work together. That's where others have failed. They try to use exotic electric clutch/bypass systems. The turbo goes from needing to supply a PR of 1.5 (with the supercharger) to a whopping 3.0 (without the supercharger). Totally different turbos and a tuning nightmare.
I spent tons of time thinking this through. I really think that the intercooled JRSC and intercooled 62-1 is the way to go for big, usable Zetec power.
It won't break the bank and I won't have to worry about filling up a bottle.
BP
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
Just look at this big, beautiful compressor map too...
(Click on it for full size.)
(Click on it for full size.)
striker2
Official CEG Vendor
thats a huge turbo. your talking almost 500 HP just with the turbo at 14-15PSI and about 350 at 7PSI
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
Yep.
The turbo map is a bit deceiving though. That map shows what is feeding the supercharger. Because the supercharger is set to a PR of 1.5, all of the values on the turbo map are multiplied.
A PR of 2.0 on the turbo map is actually a PR of 3.0 in the manifold. In other words, the 14.7psi from the turbo is multiplied to 30psi by the JRSC.
That's where the twin-charging is so friggin cool. The low end is going to be awesome. It's going to be like a V8, not a I4. With my 3" Brullen exhaust, it's going to sound incredible too. :drool:
BP
The turbo map is a bit deceiving though. That map shows what is feeding the supercharger. Because the supercharger is set to a PR of 1.5, all of the values on the turbo map are multiplied.
A PR of 2.0 on the turbo map is actually a PR of 3.0 in the manifold. In other words, the 14.7psi from the turbo is multiplied to 30psi by the JRSC.
That's where the twin-charging is so friggin cool. The low end is going to be awesome. It's going to be like a V8, not a I4. With my 3" Brullen exhaust, it's going to sound incredible too. :drool:
BP
ButtonPuncher
Veteran CEG'er
For the whole twin-charging setup, it's not going to be finished until next summer. The JRSC will be put on this summer.
I have decided to change my plans yet again. I'm going to be buying a daily driver to replace my totalled one. That is going to push my completion date by another month or two. :blackeye:
The interesting thing is that I'm going to be buying a 98 Contour. I'm tempted to test fit the JRSC to that car just to see what's involved.
BP
I have decided to change my plans yet again. I'm going to be buying a daily driver to replace my totalled one. That is going to push my completion date by another month or two. :blackeye:
The interesting thing is that I'm going to be buying a 98 Contour. I'm tempted to test fit the JRSC to that car just to see what's involved.
BP