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con rod cap bolts ????

pstrbrc

CEG'er
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
57
Location
Elkhart, Kansas
My Haynes manual says my con rod cap bolts are "torque to yield" and therefore have to be replaced on a rebuild. However, nobody stocks con rod cap bolts, when everybody stocks head bolts, so I'm thinkin' Haynes is WRONG. Right? Torque to, say, 35 ft-pounds?:shrug:
 
I had something else here before but after searching the web, have changed my mind somwhat. The big giveaway that it's a TTY bolt is the angle setting after the initial torque. 26 ft.lbs. + 90 degrees is what my stuff says. They gotta be replaced, as they permanently deform (stretch) the first time used. Have heard that you can reuse head bolts of this type twice, but don't think I would do it on rod bolts as they are the most highly stressed parts in the engine. You would be permanently deforming the bolt a second time, it's bound to be even worse. Don't ask why they would put these type bolts here, seems totally counterproductive to put a part so highly stressed that it's already pulling apart with no engine load on it. Seems just plain stupid to me, unless you're the guy who will collect all that extra money from part sales. Also, changing just the bolts alone leads to another potential problem. You should never change rod bolts without rehoning the big end of rod back to perfectly round. Have heard of people doing it, but not considered good shop practice to do. No two bolts the same, the first pressfit will be tighter that the second. A single thousandth error can blow a motor here. Does Ford even provide those bolts separately? With their cost cutting part condensation program, you may find that they only sell the complete rod as an assembly. See that one coming next, some mid level exec will discover that fact and suggest the change to get his yearly bonus. It becomes more and more obvious they don't want you to repair your car, they want to force you to buy a new one.
 
See, that's the problem. Nobody stocks these bolts. But everybody stocks the head bolts. So I don't think they really are TTY. I can't be the first person to tear open a Zetec bottom end!!!!:D
I got my head bolts, main bearings, and con rod bearings (along with gaskets and seals) from Rock Auto, but they don't list con rod bolts. If ppl were buying bearings from them, and they really were tty, I wouldn't be the first person who called them asking why they don't stock the rod bolts. So, based on the size of the bolts, I'm just going to use 35 ft-pounds.
ps. I caled the three closest Ford garages to ask them, and none of them had anybody in the shop who had ever been in the bottom end of a Zetec. :shrug:
Two places couldn't believe I didn't want a reman. Am I getting old? Don't ppl rebuild engines themselves anymore? :nonono:
 
from the 97 Ford CD
23. CAUTION: Connecting rod bolts must be replaced with new bolts. They are torque-to-yield designed and cannot be reused.

Install connecting rod cap and connecting rod bearing onto connecting rod. Alternately tighten new torque-to-yield connecting rod bolts in several passes to 35 N-m (26 lb-ft). Rotate connecting rod bolts 85-95 degrees.

Connecting Rod Bolt (8 Req'd) part number 6214

most people who rebuild Zetecs dont use factory parts. they will use aftermarket rods (which is what i did) which come with new bolts (ARP generally). you may be able to find a set of bolts directly from ARP but i wouldnt count on it.
 
Good grief! I just unbuttoned this engine to see if it really had only 65k miles! I'm not building it up; I'm sticking with stock cams and no boost. OK, I don't have a problem getting the big ends re-sized, but I can't find a specific listing for Contour rod bolts, only Focus rod bolts. Is ARP the only source?
 
Focus is the same. in fact, you can use focus rods/pistons (together only) in a contour. ARP probably is the only source these days. you might try Bill Jenkins at Team Ford in Vegas. he's been known to find some really rare stuff for us CEGers.
 
Ah, now you begin to see the quandary. I would pretty much accept that they are TTY bolts based on the last torque to angle instead of numbered torque setting. That's because a TTY bolt WILL NOT INCREASE the torque number once you hit the yield point, you are then just pulling the bolt apart. That's what the angle torque is doing, slightly pulling the bolt in half a controlled amount. You may never even get to that 35 ft.lbs. number, if the standard is 26. Bolt may break first. Also, have heard that the big end of rod changed size somewhere between '98-'99. May affect the rod bolts. Throw on crank got smaller (probably to decrease friction looking for more mileage). If you use the TTY, I would NOT increase the torque amount, that's really asking for it on these cheap parts. Rather, torque to spec and if you are nervous, carefully apply some loctite to bolt threads, I guarantee they won't back off. Be DAMN CAREFUL not to get any of that stuff up around bearing shell, Have seen it before, the results ain't pretty. Yeah, we're getting old, all the dealerships around here (Dallas/Fort Worth) will only install reman engines and trans, they do not rebuild at all. They've run off all their A mechs it seems, the guys left are not smart enough to do deep work properly. You should have seen the looks I got just insisting once that I wanted some valveshims, they thought I was crazy. Ditto looking for an ATX pump driveshaft, response was "our guys don't even do that!". Like I said, they'll probably sell you a new set of rods.
 
The cranks are all the exact same as are the big ends on the rods. I used Focus Rods in my pre98 Zetec, with a pre98 crank. the difference is in the length of the rods and the compression height on the pistons. the focus (and i believeall 98+ Zetecs) have a slightly longer rod, however they shortened the compression height on the pistons to make up for it. somewhere in my photobucket account i have a side-b-side of the Eagle rods/probe pistons for the focus and a stock pre98 rod/piston assembly.

edit: found it
SSPX0059.jpg


SSPX0058.jpg
 
So now the reputation of the dealership and the marque are in the hands of the rebuilder, over who you really have no control. Excellent business plan. I understand the logistics of it, now dealership blames rebuilder if any problem. No dealership responsibility there, he didn't do the work. Typical hand off to a third party (usually invisible) to avoid it. You basically admit it in the post. Similar to dealership blames Ford and Ford blames dealership for other type problems so that there is no resolution other than vehicle owner giving up pursuing problem. Get the cash and then tell the customer to screw off (as politely as possible of course). The money may be there but something else is missing. I've seen some of those simple instructions in manuals, they're being dumbed down as of the last 10 years or so. There's lots of instruction to change parts and sub assemblies out without really knowing why, that's why so many parts thrown at a problem now with no cure. I understand the tech being squeezed here, but there will be no need for techs if there are no customers due to what, when all is boiled down, will be bad service. Look at the last sentence. You're saying that the reman guy gives a warranty that you (insinuated) won't. And you're the dealership, the frontline measurement of performance as related to the marque. There's something wrong there. Please don't take any of this personally, any techs who read, it's not aimed at you. You guys work hard in a constantly changing work environment that seems to reward less and less. It's the corporation and the way it does things that I don't like. Things are now too adversarial.

Striker2, all I can say is Haynes manual calls for rod journals of 1.846" on '98 & earlier, and 1.727" on '99, later. That's zetec 4. Wouldn't be the first time a manual was wrong. Mentioned it because I just ran across it last last week.
 
Say, I'm impressed. I handed off to whoever, thinking someone WOULD take it personal, instead, I get thoughtful, measured answers, and another side of things without all the usual accompanying BS. I'll admit I got a chip on the shoulder about dealerships, and indeed the corporation, and it shows in some of my posts. My Dad had a garage right across the street from the resident GM dealership, and we didn't have a real good impression of it. Many dissatified customers left that service department only to come into our place to finally get their problems fixed. Our place became a meeting up spot for a lot of their mechs because we built a lot of drag motors. They would hear them startup from their shop and come over after work. We built or worked on quite a few of their personal hotrods. One other thought. There indeed will always be a need for techs as you point out. Whether or not they are dealer techs may change though, at least the percentage. Evidence I see is anecdotal, but it sure seems that a lot of people get screwed worse by the dealership than private mechs. Whether by intention or incompetence, who knows? Maybe I spend too much time on the net reading about someone's rant about his/her latest go 'round with a service department, but people do speak out when they think they've been messed around. Seems to me there is a HUGE market for knowledgeable people to start their own business showing customers that someone CAN do a reliable job at a reasonable price. I know back in the day, when we got someone from the GM shop in ours, they almost always came back for repeat visits. People crave that reliability like a drug. Nowadays, with repairs costing so much more, they'll want it even more.
 
I just axt a simple question!!!!
But your discussion is interesting, and it's not just dealership service departments. It's the whole damned culture.
I grew up distinctly redneck, and there was always a non-working car somewhere on the place to be taking things apart on. I grew up hotrodding everything I drove, 'cause that's what you did. But that's because the culture affirmed it. Boys began taking shop classes (wood, metal, auto) in 8th grade, at the same time the girls started Home Ec. We didn't learn how things worked by looking at some computer-generated graphic, but by actually holding the pieces of machinery in our hands. Every boy in my hometown had held the crankshaft of a Briggs & Stratton engine in his hands by the time he got out of ninth grade. And if he was mechanically inclined, he moved on. If not, at least he knew what one really looked like.
Nowadays, tell me that's the same. Nope. In the town I live in, if you are mechanically inclined and you want to learn about engines, the first classroom oportunity is when you go off to trade school or junior college. Talking with the instructor at the nearest trade school, he says it's not unusual to have half of his students in auto mechanics be virgins, auto-wise. I mean, not even have changed the family car's oil, much less have done a brake job or (gasp!) have performed a tune-up. Which, nowadays, is, what? Spark plugs and wires? Air and gas filter? (Oh, and don't forget the cabin air filter!)
Why? becuse they grew up in the 'burbs, where lawns are neat and cars don't puddle oil, and where you CERTAINLY DON'T tear a car apart in the side yard. (Remember where the term "shade tree mechanic" came from? No?) Where plumbing is done by a plunber, and remodelling the den is done by a remodeller, and light switches are replaced by an electrician. And they're going to schools where every student must be prepared to go to college (which might be true) so they don't need the practical experiences of shop (which is absolutely NOT true) and they are taught that the only knowledge worth knowing has to do with technology.
So they go off to school to learn everything they are going to need to know, when the thing they really need to know is, just simply, how to be comfortable with machinery. To know that it doesn't bite, and there's no majik, and it doesn't take a specialist. Because once you get through all the electronic stuff, it's still an internal combustion engine. So when I talk to the techs at the nearest dealers, they were only echoing what they've been taught by our culture. That the diagnostic machine has all the answers, and that a reman company is the only place one can really have an engine properly rebuilt. Everything is high tech and specialization.
I was reading another thread here, where someone was trying to diagnose a problem by "reading the codes". But it was pretty clear he had a vacuum leak. I'll bet he didn't have a length of 1/4" gas line he could stick in his ear and go hunting for the hiss under his hood. (sigh)
So, it's not a matter of the horrible state of dealer techs. It's our world that sucks. And the kids who are now the mechanics at many of the dealerships do not know what they are missing.
And when one of them wants to go racing, they'll buy a crate engine. :shrug:
 
Amen, brother. Sorry, didn't mean to jack your thread.
 
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