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'98 Mystique - I4, ATX - 1st gear slip

C

Captain Caveman

CEG'er
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
31
Location
Kentucky, Y'all!
So I dug around through about a years worth of posts (I think), and didn't really see this example of a symptom.

Symptoms are:

Often slips in 1st gear only. (1st gear does NOT slip in "L" position, even under heavy load)

No harsh shifting (that I know about).

We seem to have a very occasional O/D light.
However, I drove the thing about 200 miles, and the O/D light didn't occur for me.

The ex however, it happens some (she might be pushing the shifter button randomly, idk)
(She pushes buttons - that's why she's an "ex". heh)
I haven't heard if the O/D light still happens, after I pointed out the button on there and said "don't do that".

Fluid is nice clean (wish it looked that good on my Explorer).

Car seems to have been very well maintained by previous owner, good service records, etc...
I'm guessing 150k miles +/- 30k (I cant remember, sorry, but will find out)

I located a valve body with solenoid pack for ~$100 - "used but inspected" out of a (I think) lower mile car. There is a 90-day on it IIRC.

This MLPS part thingie has me curious. It's a shift selector doo-dad, basically all electrical?

and can "MLPS" be added to the acronym FAQ?

.

I had a 2000-ish Chevy Impala come thru here last year with a (I think) 4t65e tranny. We did the valve body rebuild/fixes, solenoid pack, etc.... it was interesting. I figure this CD4E is "same but different"?

Lord I hope we aren't dropped the sub-frame to get to this stuff on the CD4E! :cry:

Got any help folks?

EDIT TO ADD: "E1" car! (only C and H on temp gauge.. that's "E1", yes?)
 
So I ran off course looking at other stuff around here yesterday... heh

Hopefully a schema of the valve body and solenoids will help when i get to that.

I'm hoping, like the 4T65E (GM) we repaired, that a scarred piston wall or damaged seal in the VB isn't applying pressure to the 1st gear loop when in "Drive".
It would explain why 1st gear works great in "L", and not "D".

Anyone? Thoughts?
 
MLPS or manual lever position switch or sensor i don't remember which, some call it a TRS. when mine went out the car would shift erratically. cruising at 55 it would suddenly shift to 2nd and then back to 4th. up and down it didn't matter what speed or gear, it would just shift when it felt like it. if i recall the original MLPS has a metal base and a white plastic top, while the replacement is all black plastic. over the years of that metal base heating up it melts the internals and this is where you get your erratic shifting. however a bad MLPS shouldn't cause any slippage. my question is are you sure it's slipping? i know that sounds weird but when my trans went out everyone swore it was slipping, but it wasn't. it simply wouldn't pull until it felt like it. i think it was just building line pressure and once it reached a the correct pressure it would pull. i replaced my trans instead of replacing the valve body and solenoid pack, due to the fact when i drained the fluid which was pretty and pink it had lots of metal shavings in it. just a thought.
 
Don't waste your time or money

Don't waste your time or money

Valve body failures are so rare on these transmissions that you should look at other areas first. It is also a real bugger to get into to replace.

As a start to troubleshooting;

1. Check the MLPS sensor. Actually replace it, it is difficult to troubleshoot. IF that fixes it be happy.

2. I'd drain the trans oil into a CLEAN pan and look for metal filings. If no metal filings then refill the trans and be happy, if you do have metal filings it is likely that the trans is starting to eat itself. The snap ring groove on the double drum is not the strongest out there and may be the problem.

Or take it to a trans shop and have them scan for transmission codes. The normal and cheap scanner most of us have don't have access to the trans codes.

Best of luck
 
cetroutt said:
...........it simply wouldn't pull until it felt like it. i think it was just building line pressure and once it reached a the correct pressure it would pull. i replaced my trans instead of replacing the valve body and solenoid pack, due to the fact when i drained the fluid which was pretty and pink it had lots of metal shavings in it. just a thought.
Click to expand...

This does appear to have a definite slip. It pulls about half way thru the gear, then revs/slips before second engages. manually shifting this doesn't occur though.
 
andreslobo said:
Valve body failures are so rare on these transmissions that you should look at other areas first. It is also a real bugger to get into to replace.

As a start to troubleshooting;

1. Check the MLPS sensor. Actually replace it, it is difficult to troubleshoot. IF that fixes it be happy.

2. I'd drain the trans oil into a CLEAN pan and look for metal filings. If no metal filings then refill the trans and be happy, if you do have metal filings it is likely that the trans is starting to eat itself. The snap ring groove on the double drum is not the strongest out there and may be the problem.

Or take it to a trans shop and have them scan for transmission codes. The normal and cheap scanner most of us have don't have access to the trans codes.

Best of luck
Click to expand...

This is where I'm leaning too - do a fluid replace and see what we get out of the bottom of the unit. If it's good/clear/normal stuff, I'll proceed with other options.

The GM solenoid-controlled tranny's have solenoid problems sometimes too, whereas the solenoid no longer moves fully through it's travel, causing problems.
Apples to oranges I know (GM to Ford), but the idea may apply.

She showed up yesterday with a flashy O/D light - I got my scanner and pulled this: P0732 Gear 2 Incorrect ratio

That led me to think that *perhaps* it called for a 1-2 shift, didn't complete the shift (aka "first gear slipping"), and threw the code.
That would seem like a 1-2 valve in the V/B or a solenoid thing.

I must dug through the info on the CD4E info thread and find if there is a schema or diagram for the V/B and solenoid systems.

I do industrial machine maintenance for a living - electrical and hydraulics - so given the right documentation this shouldn't be a big problem to troubleshoot. (crossing my fingers on that) :)
 
i'm going to say the MLPS is fine. the flashing OD light if i recall correctly indicates an internal issue with the transmission. honestly if you can find a low mileage unit for a decent price i would just swap out the tranny. from all of the transmission shops around here that i spoke to, they all say that the CD4E is crap (which i think most of use will agree to) and if it goes out once then chances are very good that it'll go out again unless it is fully rebuilt. these transmissions are either really good and will go forever or they crap out around 125k-175k miles. mine took a dump right at 180k and i was going to try and rebuild it myself but after everything i've heard about them i decided to look around and find a low mileage unit.
 
The incorrect ratio code could easily be an indicator of MLPS problem.......................

Try simply readjusting it, they can get off a bit from cable/linkage wear.

A simple resistor stack, resistors add up with each other as gears go up and MLPS position changes. I rebuilt mine because got tight from dried up grease, it works fine years after that.

Looking at '98 model one for zetec, manual 1st 87 ohm, man 2nd 211, drive 401, neutral 733, reverse 1448, park 4170 ohm. At least what mine read. Still got the numbers in my trans manual.

Maybe weak SS2 solenoid or hydro circuit? Manual 1st calls for SS1 ON, SS2 OFF, drive 1st calls for both ON. Could be causing the slippage in drive low gear?
 
good stuff guys thanks.

For me it boils down to... if the clutches and stuff inside the case are good, I'm not going in there. I'd rather replace everything not requiring a tranny pull, if possible.

amc49,
I saw a chart like you've posted, but your link illustrates it better. (thanks)
I'd also had the thought that a weak SS1 might accidentally throw the code and give the impression of "1st slipping" if it didn't actuate properly, when in drive.
The chart shows a SS1 change when in "L" and PCM called for second - which leads me to believe that in manual ranges SS1 isn't really "doing" anything. Just a thought, if that makes sense. I might've overlooked something.

Either way, if going in for one solenoid - I'd do them all.

I'm thinking the overall procedure would be do a fluid change and examine the old fluid for particles or even shavings out of the drain, if that's good drive it a few days see if something "sticky" frees up.
In the meantime for assurance, I may go ahead and get a solenoid pack, V/B maybe, and a trans-go kit.. and do the whole mess before it goes south - if the fluid change/exam is a pass (so to speak).

Like the other electric trannys out there, I hope being pro-active ensures a long life.

I found a tranny cooler from an explorer too... it looks plenty large, and other than finding a mounting for it, that should help - again if everything else passes "my" checks. lol

Maybe I'll do a how-to on that, in addition to the how-to we already have on the forum (?). those coolers are cheap at the yards.
 
Ah ha. Really don't waste time with a solenoid

Ah ha. Really don't waste time with a solenoid

Captain Caveman said:
She showed up yesterday with a flashy O/D light - I got my scanner and pulled this: P0732 Gear 2 Incorrect ratio

That led me to think that *perhaps* it called for a 1-2 shift, didn't complete the shift (aka "first gear slipping"), and threw the code.
That would seem like a 1-2 valve in the V/B or a solenoid thing.

I must dug through the info on the CD4E info thread and find if there is a schema or diagram for the V/B and solenoid systems.
Click to expand...

Okay now, do this troubleshooting. Unplug the ROUND connector under the battery box, be sure that you remove the clip first. Now try to drive the car. When the round connector is unplugged the trans defaults to 2nd gear for forward and unsurprizingly reverse for reverse. If your car just sits and goes no where you can be absolutely certain that the 2-4 band is broken. A common problem.

If it is a broken band, you can drive it without further damage. I drove mine for over a year as it was an in town car. If you insist on replacing it you can for about $200 if you do the work yourself and you resist the temptation to fix everything else. You do have to pull the trans and pull most of the trans apart to do so. Brapple went the cheap route and to my knowledge he is still driving it two years later.

Me I couldn't resist the temptation and replaced all of the 'soft' parts. The old ones looked fine but I pissed away an additional $100 on a $600 car.

Andres
 
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Don't remember whom, but it was a moderator

Don't remember whom, but it was a moderator

Sorry about dragging your name through the mud brapple.

Getting back to the cheap fix for broken 2-4 band.

Gaskets; pan, case, pump, cover with gasket for band actuator

Parts; , thrust washer for main shaft directly behind the torque converter cover, it WILL be broken, Oil filter and band

Tools; IF you resist tempation, then hand tools will do. You will need alignment pins for installing the solenoid valve body and oil pump. A few cut off and slotted screws of the correct size will work. If you feel really lucky then you don't even need to check the band actuator for travel, if you want to, then one of the few trans books for the cd4e will show you how to make a checking tool from the old band actuator cover.

Sundries; Trans oil both for the trans and the powersteering as you must drain both.

Best of luck
 
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Great info if he truly has 2nd gear trouble, however he keeps saying 1st mostly. I meant SS2 not SS1 as problem, I note that SS2 also needed for 2nd gear too. Ergo, weak one could affect BOTH gears. He says manual 1 does not slip, it does not use SS2, D1 does use it.
 
more knowledge / ideas the better guys. Saturday (or before) will probably try little troubleshooting things (like the round plug trick), change fluid, etc..

That'd be a good day to de-contaminate under the hood, look at a possible valve cover leak, just get to know the car better in general - do as much as I can in 90 mins or so. (that's about all I can handle the ex anyway. lol)

Good observations amc49.

The thought I had centered on a possible slow/impeded SS1 actuation. Looking at the charts, I think the 1/2 shift in "D" relies on SS1.
That would fit with a "slip" in first in the latter part of the gear, when it's getting into to a 1/2 shift, and throwing code for "2nd not in range"(?). (does that make sense?)
Although, in either manual1 or manual2, things work as they should. That could point to a delayed SS1 cycle too I guess when in Drive. In manual ranges it's got (comparatively) all the time in the world to engage.

However, you're suggestion about the low/reverse is good too. I'll sleep on that, it's a valid clue.

I wonder what the EPC is doing in manual ranges compared to Drive. A pressure drop at shifts in Drive would make an SS1 or SS2 problem really stand out.

Sounds like a piece of grit in a control circuit. If I had a dollar for every hydraulic problem I've seen in factories... well I'd send her car to a shop and let 'em fix it.

You folks are a big help bouncing ideas around, thank you. Keep up the good ideas. :)

cbac..jpg
sva..jpg
 
My prediction, dream on about the solenoids.

My prediction, dream on about the solenoids.

Captain Caveman said:
The thought I had centered on a possible slow/impeded SS1 actuation. Looking at the charts, I think the 1/2 shift in "D" relies on SS1.
That would fit with a "slip" in first in the latter part of the gear, when it's getting into to a 1/2 shift, and throwing code for "2nd not in range"(?). (does that make sense?)
Although, in either manual1 or manual2, things work as they should. That could point to a delayed SS1 cycle too I guess when in Drive. In manual ranges it's got (comparatively) all the time in the world to engage.

However, you're suggestion about the low/reverse is good too. I'll sleep on that, it's a valid clue.

I wonder what the EPC is doing in manual ranges compared to Drive. A pressure drop at shifts in Drive would make an SS1 or SS2 problem really stand out.

Sounds like a piece of grit in a control circuit. If I had a dollar for every hydraulic problem I've seen in factories... well I'd send her car to a shop and let 'em fix it.

You folks are a big help bouncing ideas around, thank you. Keep up the good ideas. :)

View attachment 11413
View attachment 11414
Click to expand...


I got the book, I followed the solenoid charts, I dreamed it was a problem in the valve body. Then I finally sucked it up and pulled the round plug. That did it, no go, thus a broken 2-4 band. All the theorizing about which solenoid did what was an interesting exercise, but in the end a waste of my time.

After rebuilding the trans, replacing the 2-4 band, and resisting the tempation to 'fix' the valve body with a transgo shift kit, the trans worked flawlessly all the way to Mexico and back towing my motorcycle at 80 mph through the deserts and mountains. No overheating of the trans and no problems for 3 years and 40 k miles.

PS, before pulling the trans, I checked the operating oil pressure to make certain the pump was fully functional, as I heard horror stories about the pump. It turns out the horror stories were from earlier years (mine a 98)

PPS, Additionally, when you pull the trans watch out for the turbine shaft in the middle of the input shaft. It is what spins the pump in the trans. If it is twisted, find out what is binding in the oil pump. If either end is worn, replace the shaft and the mating parts.
 
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amc49 said:
Great info if he truly has 2nd gear trouble, however he keeps saying 1st mostly. I meant SS2 not SS1 as problem, I note that SS2 also needed for 2nd gear too. Ergo, weak one could affect BOTH gears. He says manual 1 does not slip, it does not use SS2, D1 does use it.
Click to expand...

But if you read his earlier posts, he says it starts in first just fine and then starts to slip, based on what happened in my conturd it was simply the engine revving up enough in first because it cannot go into second, then shifting into third, without experience one would think it is 1st gear slipping. It IS effecting both 1 and 2. If he leaves it in L on the selector it will never try to shift out of first. Then when he posted that the OD light started flashing and gave a speed mismatch code, that pretty well sealed the deal. Now instead of reading and posting and reading and posting, he can spend 5 minutes pulling the round plug and seeing if the car goes forward. If so, I am wrong, and he has eliminated that possibility and he can get back to SS1 and SS2 noodling.
 
Well, experience might be the key word here. I've known since I was 12 though if trans has 4 speeds and now only has 3 (or even 2) pretty easy to tell what's wrong. Maybe not everybody else, eh?

Valid point though. I'm amazed continually at the store by people who sound like they understand but in the end miss the most basic things in their diagnosis of things gone awry...........no insult intended or implied to OP of course.
 
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