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electric supercharger

M

MadDog

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
618
Location
Augusta, GA
Since I started reading on forced induction, I found the concept of the electric supercharger to be interesting. After doing a lot of reading, it becomes obvious that the vast majority of "e-turbos" are total crap (like you find on Ebay).

About a year ago, I found an interesting page on GA Projects that claims to have plans for a home-built electric supercharger that delivers actual boost:

http://gaprojects.com/supercharger/supercharger.htm

Given the in-depth examination of the issues around forced induction, I found the GA Projects site to be believable, although I have no practical experience.

More recently, I found another web page, "Wild Weasels" auto page,

http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eturbo.aspx

that until not long ago, was another long discussion on why the available "e-turbos" were total snake oil. However, in the last 6 months or so, it looks like he actually found and tested a real live electric supercharger that is within the range of the hobbyist.

http://www.wildweasel.ca/HowTo/Auto/eturboTest.aspx

Apparently, this place sells kits, or will soon sell kits:

http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/index.html

While I have zero practical experience with this, I thought it would be interesting to mention it and see if anyone has any thoughts on the validity of the Phantom supercharger device.

Mad Dog
 
Hey Mad Dog; I read the phantom supercharger site and it claims a non parasitic system.

To achieve a non parasitic system (when in boost), you would have to disconnect the charging circuit to the 24v supply before operating the SC. If not disconnected, as soon as you switch on the charger and use battery power, the alternator will start to re-charge the batteries. In fact; if the charging system has the capacity, the alternator would supply all the motor current demand and the battery charge would remain unchanged.

When you switch the SC on, there may be an advantage to keeping the charging circuit going.... the electric motor speed would be maintained and not slow as the battery charge falls. You would have to see how the boost 'tails off' as battery charge falls and decide if it is acceptable.

A Turbo and a conventional SC have losses and this is unavoidable because you can't get free energy. In your system, the alternator recharging the batteries would create greater drag on the engine. I wonder if the alternator drag really eats into the power created from the electric SC boost and is why they are running with the non parasitic angle.

To make that system as good as it could be, you may need to get an upgraded alternator (for 'on boost' re-charging).

Many people have dismissed electric chargers, good for you that you are willing to explore the possibility and learn some valuable lessons. You never know, you might decide that you could make a better kit yourself. You could for instance, use an electric motor to drive a conventional SC, instead of using a belt drive. You could then control the motor speed to your own design instead of being tied to the linear output of a belt driven setup. .... G.
 
I must again mention I have zero actual experience, so anything I say could be a complete and total waste of bumwipe.

Having said that, my understanding, from reading the Phantom page, is that the separate battery used to power the compressor does not tap from the alternator while it is engaged (full throttle). To avoid parasitic loss, the separate battery would have to be isolated, correct ? There does appear to be a controller unit that mediates the charging of the separate battery.

As far as I can tell, the theory is sound. Run the compressor for short durations (presumably the battery output is flat over the intended duration) using a high demand battery that is decoupled at full throttle. Charge the battery only when the alternator has the excess capacity.

I am glad to get people like yourself, who have actual experience to weigh in on this - so I can learn.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
I think you will need two batteries in the trunk, 24v systems normally have two 12v batteries in series

Again; I would question why the charging circuit is disconnected while running the supercharger... the extra stable power you would think, would be desirable. I would find out the expected power increase from the system.

No one has ever run an electric charger on the forum as far as I remember. I did read about them some time ago.... I decided to bide my time and get a proven supercharger when one popped up.

If you are serious about having a supercharger, you could do what I did.... while you are waiting for the right one to come along, get all the necessary modifications to the rest of the car done.

.... G.
 
One of the selling points (to me) of an ES is that it appears to be a much less complex system than a standard TC or SC. I am not anywhere technically ready to delve into a real TC or SC system.

I think there are some youtube links from the Wild Weasel or Phantom sites that shows some of the aspects of that system.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
if you put an effective electric supercharger on your car, you will still need to look into;

upgrading the fuel pump
increasing the fuel injectors
installing a fuel regulator (fuel system dependent)
improving oil cooling,
upgrading your brakes,
re map your PCM.
improving your traction/tires
installing a better clutch
installing extra gauges to monitor your air/fuel, oil temp, exhaust temp etc.

you are asking a little too much of your car to safely/reliably handle a 50 bhp increase, with no change to anything.

If this is too much for you to manage, find a buddy to help you. You could get involved with someone who is modding their car and gain knowledge that way.
You could end up with all manner of problems if you just go in blind and your car could spend more time off the road than on.

The car I am modding is not my DD. It makes all the difference to working on such a big undertaking. It gives you time to think things thru and make better decisions.

I know this is not what you want hear, but I think you'll find in the long run it is sound advice. .... G.
 
I take your advice seriously. I understand that I have much to learn, and you cant just slap something in without considering the secondary ramifications. The ES is something I could see myself doing.....at some point in the future, if I can successfully do the sort of upgrades that should proceed it. Right now, all I have is a DD, and I cant take the risk of borking it.

Assuming I can get a second CSVT, this would allow me to slowly learn how to do some of the more serious rebuilds. In the case of the ES, I might be tempted to do a battery relocation in case I decide to go with that at a later point.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
nearly everybody that has a turbo, started off by putting a cold air intake on first, then a throttle body and so on, me included.

Routine maintenance along the way will familiarize you with your engine bay.

A project car is a very good idea, wish I had done that instead of making my DD so unreliable that I had to buy another and garage my ST24.

Still, you live and learn eh ? lol .... G
 
I can live and learn, or in the process , my wife might kill me. Depends on how much of the garage I occupy.

Mad Dog
 
MadDog said:
I can live and learn, or in the process , my wife might kill me. Depends on how much of the garage I occupy.

Mad Dog
Click to expand...

The wife will kill you, no matter what you do, so......

do what makes you happy and die with a smile on your face... :crazy: ....G.
 
Dont know if it would be much of a fight - I think she would put me down like a bad dog in no time at all. Im whipped.

Mad Dog
 
To funny. I actually designed a system for my car already. Went as far as buying the components too. The other engineers at my office nick named my project the Hoover Charger.

Plan was to run two batteries in the trunk. One large main relay for the second battery to disconnect it from the charging circuit during pulls as to not load down the car. I was going to treat it just like nitrous as far as the ECM tuning was concerned. I have the inlet side of a turbo setup to connect to a A/C motor. To get to A/C I've got a large 1500 watt inverter running off the single battery. It's not the most efficient way, but it would work. Battery charge status is monitored via a simple 3 LED high-low level board (which I never built). Low voltage level would lock out the use of the system and turn on a red LED. The trick was to get a high enough rpm to the turbine shaft to produce a decent boost pressure. The final design was probably going to go through a small gear box. As the most reliable setup I could find that could handle the shaft loads was 30,000rpm. IIRC I needed about 75,000rpm to really support anything substantial.

I don't think I ever posted anything on CEG about it. It was more or less a small little pet project on the side. Parts are still in my basement. I should try to install it on my Civic ;)
 
You can't treat boost like nitrous. If you are pushing in pressurized air you need more fuel according to the boost level, and by more fuel I mean a LOT more fuel. It only takes a few seconds of running boost lean to grenade your engine lol.
 
just out of curiosity;

does anyone know how many W / KW / HP .... a supercharger taps from an engine to create 7 / 10 /14 22 etc psi ? ... G.
 
2000ZxT said:
You can't treat boost like nitrous. If you are pushing in pressurized air you need more fuel according to the boost level, and by more fuel I mean a LOT more fuel. It only takes a few seconds of running boost lean to grenade your engine lol.
Click to expand...

Of course you can. You inject more fuel when you inject nitrous. When the electric motor is energized the PCM would have to switch fuel maps to keep up with the boost, which essentially is exactly how the nitrous system works with the fuel jets. If the injectors can't keep up then you would have to use jets just like the nitrous setups.
 
gorman said:
just out of curiosity;

does anyone know how many W / KW / HP .... a supercharger taps from an engine to create 7 / 10 /14 22 etc psi ? ... G.
Click to expand...

You could work that out, but every supercharger has a different efficiency so it would vary from one SC to another.
 
tsSVT said:
You could work that out, but every supercharger has a different efficiency so it would vary from one SC to another.
Click to expand...

I thought it would be good to have a ballpark figure as a bench mark...... that way the guys could see how efficient/inefficient there electric systems are.....G.
 
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